Purgatory

[RandomProddy]

[quote name='JeffCR07' date='Jun 17 2004, 02:51 PM'] As such, Jesus would not have lied to the thief when he said "this day" if we understand heaven to be the Eternal Day. Think about it, that is the only way that it makes sense. If one were to believe that Christ meant "before earth completes its rotation, you will be with me in Paradise" then you are saying that Heaven is bound within Time, which it is not. [/quote]
He could have been saying, when you die on this earth (i.e. this day) on the same day He dies, they will both be in heaven that same day (heaven days, i.e. one day for all eternity, full of light and grace).

The idea that the theif went up immediately and Jesus hung aroung for 43 days may seem like a contradiction but it's resolved looking at how time works "down here" and "up there". They aren't really the same concept.

[RandomProddy]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Jun 17 2004, 03:44 PM'] I am right.

My source is Scripture.... and basic logic.
i.e...
No one could enter Heaven until Christ went to Heaven. Christ didn't go to Heaven until Pentacost. [/quote]
In that case, the Catholic Church, the Orthodox, the Anglicans, the Nicene Creed, the KJV, the DRV.. all wrong?

[ironmonk]

[quote name='RandomProddy' date='Jun 17 2004, 10:40 AM'] I'm not so sure you are right Ironmonk.

4 Kings 2:11

"[color=red]And as they went on, walking and talking together, behold a fiery chariot, and fiery horses parted them both asunder: and Elias went up by a whirlwind into heaven.[/color]"

What you said is essentially correct, no-one gets into heaven before Jesus did. But Jesus, according to the Nicene Creed,( I underline the bit I will emphasize);

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
[u]eternally begotten[/u] of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
[u]Through him all things were made.[/u]
For us and for our salvation
[u]he came down from heaven:[/u] ([i]i.e. he was already in heaven[/i])
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose [u]again[/u]
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

So you could say that he could well have been in heaven at creation.

And Heaven was created pretty early on in history:

Genesis 1:1

"[color=red]In the beginning God created heaven, and earth.[/color]"

"[color=blue]In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.[/color]"

(DRV --> red, KJV --> Blue)
And one last point with an explanation: Praise god for blessing us with Einstein.

He came up with the idea that space and time are linked symbiotically. Without space, no time and vice-versa. So before the Big Bang, where space was defined, time was also defined, so there was literally nothing before the Big Bang, so that's Genesis 1:2 proved

Also, according to the theory, heaven (outside space) is also, hence, outside time.

Take that secular humanists! [/quote]
Heaven was another term for sky.


I am right.

[b]St. John 14:6 [/b]Jesus said to him, "[color=red]I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. [/color]

[b]St. John 20:17 [/b]Jesus said to her, "[color=red]Stop holding on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and tell them, 'I am going to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'[/color]"


[b]1 Peter 3:19 [/b]In it he also went to preach to the spirits in prison,


No one entered Heaven before Christ.

Study, study, study... as I have for the past 25 years.


[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01055a.htm"]The Bosom of Abraham[/url]In the Holy Bible, the expression "the Bosom of Abraham" is found only in two verses of St. Luke's Gospel (xvi, 22, 23). It occurs in the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus the imagery of which is plainly drawn from the popular representations of the unseen world of the dead which were current in Our Lord's time. According to the Jewish conceptions of that day, the souls of the dead were gathered into a general tarrying-place the Sheol of the Old Testament literature, and the Hades of the New Testament writings (cf. Luke, xvi, 22 in the Gr. xvi, 23). A local discrimination, however, existed among them, according to their deeds during their mortal life. In the unseen world of the dead the souls of the righteous occupied an abode or compartment of their own which was distinctly separated by a wall or a chasm from the abode or compartment to which the souls of the wicked were consigned. The latter was a place of torments usually spoken of as Gehenna (cf. Matt., v, 29, 30; xviii, 9- Mark, ix, 42 sqq. in the Latin Vulgate)- the other, a place of bliss and security known under the names of "Paradise" (cf. Luke, xxiii, 43) and "the Bosom of Abraham" (Luke, xvi, 22 23). And it is in harmony with these Jewish conceptions that Our Lord pictured the terrible fate of the selfish Rich Man, and on the contrary, the glorious reward of the patient Lazarus. In the next life Dives found himself in Gehenna, condemned to the most exeruciating tor ments, whereas Lazarus was carried by the angels into "the Bosom of Abraham", where the righteous dead shared in the repose and felicity of Abraham "the father of the faithful". But while commentators generally agree upon the meaning of the figurative expression "the Bosom of Abraham", as designating the blissful abode of the righteous souls after death, they are at variance with regard to the manner in which the phrase itself originated. Up to the time of Maldonatus (A.D. 1583), its origin was traced back to the universal custom of parents to take up into their arms, or place upon their knees, their children when they are fatigued, or return home, and to make them rest by their side during the night (cf. II Kings, xii, 2; III Kings, iii, 20; xvii, 19; Luke, xi, 7 sqq.), thus causing them to enjoy rest and security in the bosom of a loving parent. After the same manner was Abraham supposed to act towards his children after the fatigues and troubles of the present life, hence the metaphorical expression "to be in Abraham's Bosom" as meaning to be in repose and happiness with him. But according to Maldonatus (In Lucam, xvi, 22), whose theory has since been accepted by many scholars, the metaphor "to be in Abraham's Bosom" is derived from the custom of reclining on couches at table which prevailed among the Jews during and before the time of Christ. As at a feast each guest leaned on his left elbow so as to leave his right arm at liberty, and as two or more lay on the same couch, the head of one man was near the breast of the man who lay behind, and he was therefore said "to lie in the bosom" of the other. It was also considered by the Jews of old a mark of special honour and favour for one to be allowed to lie in the bosom of the master of the feast (cf. John 13:23). And it is by this illustration that they pictured the next world. They conceived of the reward of the righteous dead as a sharing in a banquet given by Abraham, "the father of the faithful" (cf. Matt., viii, 11 sqq.), and of the highest form of that reward as lying in "Abraham's Bosom". Since the coming of Our Lord, "the Bosom of Abraham" gradually ceased to designate a place of imperfect happiness, and it has become synonymous with Heaven itself. In their writings the Fathers of the Church mean by that expression sometimes the abode of the righteous dead before they were admitted to the Beatific Vision after the death of the Saviour, sometimes Heaven, into which the just of the New Law are immediately introduced upon their demise. When in her liturgy the Church solemnly prays that the angels may carry the soul of one of her departed children to "Abraham's Bosom", she employs the expression to designate Heaven and its endless bliss in company with the faithful of both Testaments, and in particular with Abraham, the father of them all. This passage of the expression "the Bosom of Abraham" from an imperfect and limited sense to one higher and fuller is a most natural one, and is in full harmony with the general character of the New Testament dispensation as a complement and fulfilment of the Old Testament revelation.



God Bless,
ironmonk

[ironmonk]

[quote name='RandomProddy' date='Jun 17 2004, 10:55 AM'] In that case, the Catholic Church, the Orthodox, the Anglicans, the Nicene Creed, the KJV, the DRV.. all wrong? [/quote]
My view IS THAT of the Catholic Church.

God Bless,
ironmonk

[RandomProddy]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Jun 17 2004, 04:03 PM'] Heaven was another term for sky. [/quote]
Are you suggesting when God created everything he then shoved Jesus on a cloud above our heads in normal space-time? How could he have seen Satan fall then if that's the case?

It's a fundamental teaching that Christ was [i]with God in heaven[/i] dude. (not fluffy cloud heaven, the real one).

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

[u]Why the Good Thief (St. Dismas), didn't need Purgatory:[/u]

1. St. Dismas was baptized through "[i]baptism of desire[/i]" during his last moments.

2. Baptism not only removes sin, it also removes temporal punishment. Thus no penace is necessary for those sins, and no suffering in Purgatory. Catechism:
[quote]978 "When we made our first profession of faith while receiving the holy Baptism that cleansed us, [b]the forgiveness we received then was so full and complete that there remained in us absolutely nothing left to efface[/b], neither original sin nor offenses committed by our own will, [b]nor was there left any penalty to suffer in order to expiate them[/b]. . . . Yet the grace of Baptism delivers no one from all the weakness of nature. On the contrary, we must still combat the movements of concupiscence that never cease leading us into evil " (523)

523 Roman Catechism I, 11,3[/quote]
[quote]1263 By Baptism all sins are forgiven, original sin and all personal sins, [b]as well as all punishment for sin[/b]. (66) In those who have been reborn nothing remains that would impede their entry into the Kingdom of God, neither Adam's sin, nor personal sin, [b]nor the consequences of sin[/b], the gravest of which is separation from God.

66 Cf. Council of Florence (1439): DS 1316[/quote]

3. St. Dismas could have gone to Heaven [b]when Christ did[/b], without going through Purgatory first.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='RandomProddy' date='Jun 17 2004, 11:11 AM']Are you suggesting when God created everything he then shoved Jesus on a cloud above our heads in normal space-time? How could he have seen Satan fall then if that's the case?

It's a fundamental teaching that Christ was [i]with God in heaven[/i] dude. (not fluffy cloud heaven, the real one).[/quote]

Not suggesting that.

Maybe I should have put "Heaven was also used as a term for sky." for those who are not reading everything and have a hard time following basic flow of a dialog. Seeing how I have already stated that no one was in Heaven before Christ going back to Heaven, I'm sorry that I assumed that everyone would follow along.

That was in ref. to him saying that Elijah was in Heaven before Christ came and went back to Heaven.

Have you read [i]anything [/i] that I've been posting on this thread and board?

[url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?act=Search&CODE=show&searchid=9ac9e1569d6666bf6b01039a9e9d0620&search_in=posts&result_type=topics&highlite="]Here is a Search For You To Click[/url]


Here is my forum: [url="http://www.MoralTruth.com/MTBBS/"]http://www.MoralTruth.com/MTBBS/[/url]



God Bless,
ironmonk

[Guest JeffCR07]

I think you guys misunderstood my post about Time and Heaven and how it relates to the GT thing.

The Good Thief story doesn't deal with Purgatory because he professed his faith and did his act of penance, all in one fell swoop, when he defended Christ's innocence from the attack made upon him by the other theif. Thus, I believe personally, that purgatory wasn't necessary, because I doubt that he sinned again after he was forgiven by Christ and before he died.

Now, how does this make sense with regards to Time?

1.) We know that no one enters heaven accept through the Christ.
2.) We know that Heaven, God, and Hell are Eternal and thus outside of Time
3.) We know that when Christ became man, he "entered" the world, and thus, time.
4.) We know that when he died he descended into hell (left "time") and that he rose "entered time again" having conquered death. He remained in "time" until he was taken to heaven (left time) to sit at the right hand of the Father.

The fallacy that everyone is making is that you are ignoring an aspect of the Myster of Salvation.

You are saying that because he "left time" to descend, "returned into time" to teach, and "left time" to sit at the right hand of the Father. It logically follows that he sits at the right hand AFTER he descends into Hell.

This is an erroneous conclusion. We can only deal with sequencial events insofar as they are within time.

Thus, the moment that the thief leaves "time" we cannot say that he "waited" for christ to rise, because, in heaven and outside of time, he is the Eternally Risen King.

Purgatory exists in time, but only those who need purification go there. The thief did not need purification, so, in my mind, he did not go there.

It's confusing, I know, but much of the teaching of the Magisterium's teaching is. Just try to be open to the Spirit, and if you still can't comprehend (even I dont understand in fullness) then trust in faith.

- Your Brother in Christ, Jeff

[ironmonk]

[quote name='thedude' date='Jun 17 2004, 11:40 AM'] [u]Why the Good Thief (St. Dismas), didn't need Purgatory:[/u]

1. St. Dismas was baptized through "[i]baptism of desire[/i]" during his last moments.

2. Baptism not only removes sin, it also removes temporal punishment. Thus no penace is necessary for those sins, and no suffering in Purgatory. Catechism:



3. St. Dismas could have gone to Heaven [b]when Christ did[/b], without going through Purgatory first. [/quote]
No one is saying that the Good Thief went to Purgatory.

Paradise [b]is not [/b]Purgatory.
Paradise [b]is not [/b]Heaven.


The Good Thief was in Paradise with Christ.

[quote]Jesus told the thief on the cross that, on the very day the two of them died, they would be together in paradise (Luke 23:43), which they read as a denial of purgatory. However, the argument backfires and actually supports purgatory by proving the existence of a state other than heaven and hell, since Jesus did not go to heaven on the day he died. Peter tells us that he "went and preached to the spirits in prison" (1 Pet. 3:19), and, after his resurrection, Christ himself declared: "I have not yet ascended to the Father" (John 20:17). Thus at that time paradise was located in some third state besides heaven and besides hell.
[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp[/url][/quote]


There is:[list]
[*][b]Heaven[/b]
[*][b]Gehenna [/b](pool of fire - eternal damnation - some refer to as Hell)
[*][b]Paradise [/b]- Also known as The Bosum of Abraham - Referred to as Prison by Peter. Where all the souls waited until Christ came and returned to the Father. aka Hell, Hades, Abode of the Dead
[*][b]Purgatory [/b]- maybe a place, maybe a state of being - the cleaning of the soul from the small sins
[/list]


God Bless,
ironmonk

[RandomProddy]

[quote name='JeffCR07' date='Jun 17 2004, 04:45 PM']
You are saying that because he "left time" to descend, "returned into time" to teach, and "left time" to sit at the right hand of the Father. It logically follows that he sits at the right hand AFTER he descends into Hell.

This is an erroneous conclusion. We can only deal with sequencial events insofar as they are within time.

Thus, the moment that the thief leaves "time" we cannot say that he "waited" for christ to rise, because, in heaven and outside of time, he is the Eternally Risen King.
[/quote]
I think that's what I tried to say, time here and time there aren't comparable neither in direction or speed.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

ironmonk,
Sorry, I wasn't trying to disprove anything you said, I wanted to affirm Jeff's belief that St. Dismas didn't go to Purgatory.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

I think it is logical that St. Dismas went to the Bosum of Abraham, and then to Heaven.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='thedude' date='Jun 17 2004, 11:54 AM'] ironmonk,
Sorry, I wasn't trying to disprove anything you said, I wanted to affirm Jeff's belief that St. Dismas didn't go to Purgatory. [/quote]
Sorry, I thought - that you thought - that I was saying that the Good Thief went to purgatory...

God Bless,
ironmonk

[Guest JeffCR07]

lol, ironmonk, I wasnt saying that anyone WAS saying that, I was just covering my bases. I just want to see the source from which you are getting your information on Paradise.

your quote that:
[quote]since Jesus did not go to heaven on the day he died. Peter tells us that he "went and preached to the spirits in prison" (1 Pet. 3:19), and, after his resurrection, Christ himself declared:"I have not yet ascended to the Father"  (John 20:17).[/quote]

But if Paradise does not exist WITHIN time, then your conclusion is false. When Christ says "I have not yet ascended to the Father" remember he is [i]inside[/i] of time. Thus, for those on earth, he has not. The same cannot be said about those outside of time.

Personally, I agree with you. It seems to me that Paradise demands that it be "within" time, due to the fact that it is a state of "waiting" thus implying time. Moreover, I think it's time is much like that of Purgatory: a time that is real, but that is foreign to us here on earth.

Honestly, all I'm saying is that, until you can show me something from the Magisterium or a Pope that defines Paradise as being within time, we cannot authoritatively say one way or another.

However, personally, I'm with ya all the way brother!

- Your Brother in Christ, Jeff

[ironmonk]

[quote name='JeffCR07' date='Jun 17 2004, 12:08 PM'] lol, ironmonk, I wasnt saying that anyone WAS saying that, I was just covering my bases. I just want to see the source from which you are getting your information on Paradise.

your quote that:


But if Paradise does not exist WITHIN time, then your conclusion is false. When Christ says "I have not yet ascended to the Father" remember he is [i]inside[/i] of time. Thus, for those on earth, he has not. The same cannot be said about those outside of time.

Personally, I agree with you. It seems to me that Paradise demands that it be "within" time, due to the fact that it is a state of "waiting" thus implying time. Moreover, I think it's time is much like that of Purgatory: a time that is real, but that is foreign to us here on earth.

Honestly, all I'm saying is that, until you can show me something from the Magisterium or a Pope that defines Paradise as being within time, we cannot authoritatively say one way or another.

However, personally, I'm with ya all the way brother!

- Your Brother in Christ, Jeff [/quote]
No... it's not my conclusion, it's the Catholic Church's teaching - I didn't come up with it, it has been taught since 33 AD... It has nothing to do with Time. I'm just trying to explain it to those who do not understand it.

Time as we know it does not exist in Heaven, Hell, Paradise, Purgatory. There is eternity - things happen in sequence without end.

But, no one could go to Heaven until after Christ became man and asended to the Father.

That is why every human was dead before Christ came and returned.

God told Adam and Eve they would die if they ate the fruit. They did. Therefore they had to die. Death is not making it to Heaven. Satan felt that he had won, because he kept man from going to Heaven. The only way for Man to be able to go to Heaven is for God to become man and die and by His power resurrect man, because God cannot go against Himself. God keeps His Word. When God died, and was resurrected, it opened the door to Heaven for man, only after Christ returned to Heaven.

Even though time does not exist like it does here, things do happen in sequence. Proof.... God created the world in 6 days, on the sevanth day He rested.

The Catholic Church teaches that [b]no one[/b] was in Heaven before Christ was ascended to Heaven. Christ did not ascend to Heaven [b]until[/b] the 40 days were completed that He spent with the Apostles.


God Bless,
ironmonk