ironmonk Posted June 15, 2004 Share Posted June 15, 2004 The following verses describe what the Catholic Church calls "Purgatory" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [b]Isaiah 6:5 [/b] Then I said, "Woe is me, I am doomed! For I am a man of unclean lips, living among a people of unclean lips; yet my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts!" [b]6 [/b]Then one of the seraphim flew to me, holding an ember which he had taken with tongs from the altar. [b]7 [/b]He touched my mouth with it. "See," he said, "now that this has touched your lips, your wickedness is removed, your sin purged." Sins are purged so he may enter Heaven. If sins are purged, then he will be saved. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [b]Matt 12:32 [/b] And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. How can someone be in Hell, and then be forgiven??? The age to come people can be forgiven, it can't be Heaven because there is no need for forgiveness because in Heaven there will not be sin... it can't be Hell because once your in Hell, it's for eternity. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [b]Rev 20:13 [/b] The sea gave up its dead; then Death and Hades gave up their dead. All the dead were judged according to their deeds. [b]14 [/b]Then Death and Hades were thrown into the pool of fire. (This pool of fire is the second death.) [b]15 [/b]Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the pool of fire. Death and Hades (not the pool of fire) gave up their dead and they were judged according to their deeds.... THEN Death and Hades were thrown into the pool of fire (HELL as we know it) Death and Hades is not Hell, and is not Heaven... then what could it be??? The Catholic Church calls it Purgatory. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [b]1 John 5:16 [/b] If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray. [b]Rev 21:27 [/b] but nothing unclean will enter it, nor any (one) who does abominable things or tells lies. Only those will enter whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life. Nothing Unclean can enter Heaven, but not all sin is deadly (1 John 5:16) therefore we must have our sin purged (Isaiah 6:6-7) before we enter Heaven if we are guilty of lesser sins. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [b]1 Cor 3:15 [/b] But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire. How can we be saved from Hell, because Hell is eternal? This being saved as through fire can only be Purgatory, where our lesser sins will be purged from us. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [b]Luke 12:59 [/b] I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid the last penny." We will pay for all our sins in one way or another (Purgatory). All our sins must be paid for. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [b]2 Macc 12:43 [/b] He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; [b]44 [/b]for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. [b]45 [/b] But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. [b]46 [/b]Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin. If we make it to Heaven, we don't need atonement. If we go to Hell, there is no atonement.... There must be Purgatory -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [b]1 Peter 1:6[/b] In this you rejoice, although now for a little while you may have to suffer through various trials, [b]7[/b] so that the genuineness of your faith, more precious than gold that is perishable even though tested by fire, may prove to be for praise, glory, and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [b]Job 1:5[/b] And when each feast had run its course, Job would send for them and sanctify them, rising early and offering holocausts for every one of them. For Job said, "It may be that my sons have sinned and blasphemed God in their hearts." This Job did habitually. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [b]Purgatory from the Catechism, The Official Teaching of the Catholic Church: [/b] [b]III. The Final Purification, or Purgatory[/b] [b]1030 [/b]All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. [b]1031 [/b]The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607 As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608 [b]1032 [/b]This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead: Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.611 607: Cf. 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7. 608: St. Gregory the Great, Dial. 4, 39: PL 77, 396; cf. Mt 12:31. 609: 2 Macc 12:46. 611: St. John Chrysostom, Hom. in 1 Cor. 41, 5: PG 61, 361; cf. Job 1:5. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- God Bless, Love in Christ & Mary iron monk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted June 15, 2004 Share Posted June 15, 2004 Forget a shot over the bow, let's hit below the water line! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted June 15, 2004 Author Share Posted June 15, 2004 OH... I forgot to add... Purgatory is not a doctrine that the Catholic Church came up with. The doctrine actually came about hundreds of years before Christ came. All the Jews believe in it. The Catholic Church only gave it a name. Look up "Rash Hoshanna" and "Mourner's [url="http://www.jewfaq.org/death.htm#Kaddish"]Kaddish[/url]" from a couple of different jewish sites. (http://www.jewfaq.org, [url="http://shamash.org/trb/judaism.html"]http://shamash.org/trb/judaism.html[/url] ) ... The Catholic Faith... the second part of the I AM faith.... the Jewish being the first part. God Bless, ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Just Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 (edited) [color=red]edited by Cmom, that was an uncalled for generalization[/color] Edited June 16, 2004 by cmotherofpirl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homeschoolmom Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 [quote name='MC Just' date='Jun 15 2004, 07:33 PM'] Truth like this goes through one ear and out the other on Protestants. [/quote] That's a pretty sweeping generalization... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatcatholic Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 [quote name='MC Just' date='Jun 15 2004, 07:33 PM'] Truth like this goes through one ear and out the other on Protestants. [/quote] i hate to be "that guy" but its generalizations of this sort on another board i've been frequenting that make it such an uncharitable place. so, i usually try to refrain..... just some constructive criticism bro pax christi, phatcatholic ps: "all catholics are brainwashed" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatcatholic Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 [quote name='ironmonk' date='Jun 15 2004, 01:34 PM'] The following verses describe what the Catholic Church calls "Purgatory" [/quote] ur goin in the reference section playa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted June 16, 2004 Author Share Posted June 16, 2004 [quote name='homeschoolmom' date='Jun 15 2004, 10:51 PM']That's a pretty sweeping generalization...[/quote] A generalization is something that fits for most people of any certain group. It is a true statement. The evidence is overwhelming... any church that does not teach about purgatory cannot possibly be the Church established by Christ. Most drop this topic and move on to the next... then when they can't prove the Church wrong on that point, instead of changing their mind when they cannot rebut, they change the topic. Though this is a generalization, it is a true one. This is what happens... if they didn't change the topic, they would become Catholic... and with all the anti-Catholicism in America and the rest of the world, it's easier for them to change the topic instead of the Catholic Church be right about something. Notice on this board how every anti-Catholic with overwhelming evidence against their attack on the Church, simply changes the subject... and never says that the Catholic Church is right. Now, there are and have been some non-Catholics that took a while, but they came with a love for truth and now they are Catholic or soon will be. Of course the anti-Catholics consider this brainwashing... if the Catholic Church sounds right on something, it must be brainwashing. I'm still trying to figure out how the Church washed my brain when all I had was the bible until I was 18. - we all know this happens while we sleep. God Bless, ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatcatholic Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 you'd be surprised (well, then again, maybe u wouldn't be) by how much i literally have to FIGHT in order to keep a thread on topic over at bruce's home-turf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philippe Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 hmm question... if u had confession right before you died (on your death bed) so ud be totally cleansed of all your sins... would u have to go to purgatory ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crusader1234 Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 Well, you'd still have to pay for your sins apparently, unless you spent your whole life feeding the homeless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatcatholic Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 [quote name='lifeteener' date='Jun 16 2004, 03:43 AM'] hmm question... if u had confession right before you died (on your death bed) so ud be totally cleansed of all your sins... would u have to go to purgatory ? [/quote] it depends.... absolution resolves the effect of sin on your spirit penance resolves the effect of sin on the Body of Christ. if, before ur deathbed confession, you had adquately atoned for the suffering your sin caused the body, then no purging is necessary. the absolution made ur spirit clean. heaven is urs. but, if you had not responded to the grace of God which prompts us towards acts of charity (which in turn counteract the effects of sin on the Body), then some time in purgatory would be necessary, even though ur sins were forgiven. if my theology here is incorrect, someone let me know. pax christi, phatcatholic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philippe Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 well id be extatic to make it to purgatory because then at least i know im going to Heaven for SURE ... Lord have Mercy i dont want to go to hell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce S Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 Rather that impose upon your "Purgatory Party" and mutual self support group hug on the joys of post death suffering. I want to save you all a lot of worry, no one has to EVER go to purgatory for more than a week, come saturday after death, your soul will be sprung and off to heaven you go. And this won't break, be lost, and you can't forget to wear it. See - I solved your problem. PAX!! ---- >> [url="http://tattoopgh.com/zimages/scapular3_01.jpg"]http://tattoopgh.com/zimages/scapular3_01.jpg[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted June 16, 2004 Author Share Posted June 16, 2004 [quote name='crusader1234' date='Jun 16 2004, 05:48 AM'] Well, you'd still have to pay for your sins apparently, unless you spent your whole life feeding the homeless [/quote] I'm sorry, but that is incorrect. Once a sin is forgiven, provided that the sinner was truly sorry, there would be no time in/with purgatory. I wouldn't want to speculate on what a bad confession would cause someone; depending on what the sin was, it could put one's soul in grave danger. Just everyone make sure you are sincere in wanting to turn from your sins when at confession and you'll have nothing to worry about. God Bless! ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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