For Goodness Sake

[theculturewarrior]

Lumberjack...



That's just not intelligent.

Edited June 17, 2004 by theculturewarrior

[Guest JeffCR07]

About those Angels:

To the best of my knowledge, this is how the whole Angel thing works:

Angels are inherently good, as stated multiple times above.

Angels & free will: free will is the ability to choose for self in God or for self in opposition to God. We all know that Lucifer many (Bible says 1/3) of the Angels in opposition to God, but what happened then?

I'm pretty sure that the Church's teaching is as follows, though I willingly admit that I cannot find where I heard it:

The Angels either do not have free will since Lucifer's turning away, or do not exercise their free will.

Thus, Satan and the demons cannot be saved, for, by some means, they are locked in their ways.

What does this mean?

It means that YES the angels, whether fallen or in communion with God, are inherently (intrinsically) good. However, their free will (IE an opportunity to act in accordance or against their own nature) has already been exercised, and their decision has been made.

hope that helps!

- Your Brother in Christ, Jeff

[theculturewarrior]

[quote]and Ghengis Khan was a great killer of masses...

so do I want to be as great a Christian as he was a killer...sure!

but that doesn't mean that I'm gonna say, I'm as good a christian as Ghengis Khan was a killer...

Ghandi put his faith to practice...so?

without God, what do you really have your faith in?

nothing.


God bless. [/quote]

Okay Lumberjack. I'm going to break it down for you, because this analogy is off, and I've come to expect better from you.

Look at how this sounds:

Gandhi is to Christ as Ghengis Khan is to Christ.

Gandhi, who fasted all his life, turned the other cheek and preached Christ-like forgiveness of his persecutors, who read and admired the Gospels, and drew inspiration from them, is to Our Lord and Savior, as Ghengis Khan, barbarian conqueror and wholesale murderer.

I don't think that's a tenable analogy.

[the lumberjack]

cw, you were giving a NON Christian example of a person who applied their beliefs to the fullest of their capabilities.

so did I.

Ghengis Khan was a greatly feared man and a great conqueror... he did what he believed to his fullest ability.

just like you said with Ghandi...

the only perfect example, worth giving, is Christ.

[crusader1234]

[quote]"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."
  --  Mahatma Gandhi[/quote]

[theculturewarrior]

Lumberjack...



This barely merits comment.

Let's try a parallel analogy...

Adolf Hitler is to Gandhi as Martin Luther King is to Gandhi.

It doesn't matter that Adolf Hitler lived and fought for what he believed in, and Gandhi did too. I mean, you could also say that Adolf Hitler is to Christ as Lumberjack is to Christ...I mean, hey, they're all fully human, right? They all breathed in Oxygen and let out CO2. But the analogy stops there, because the similarities end there. Gandhi was a hero and you say it doesn't matter. Ghengis Khan was a murderer, but all non believers are the same?



Gandhi and Ghengis Khan are apples and oranges.

[theculturewarrior]

And yes, I was indeed giving an example of a non Christian who lived their beliefs to the fullest. But Gandhi was heroic, and you have yet to account for the fact that he was not "saved" and did heroic things.

[theculturewarrior]

[the lumberjack]

a hero without Christ is hardly a hero worth mentioning.
(and lets not bring up anyone in the OT...k?)
you can draw something good from everyone of the people we've both listed.

Ghengis Khan's unrelenting will.
Hitler's fervor and fire.

though yes, both were SEVERELY misplaced....

the point IS, Hitler is with Ghandi now...or do you believe that Ghandi is in heaven?

[IcePrincessKRS]

[quote name='JeffCR07' date='Jun 17 2004, 05:11 PM']

I'm pretty sure that the Church's teaching is as follows, though I willingly admit that I cannot find where I heard it:

The Angels either do not have free will since Lucifer's turning away, or do not exercise their free will.

Thus, Satan and the demons cannot be saved, for, by some means, they are locked in their ways.
[/quote]
I am not 100% sure either, but I would think that the Angels DO have free will and FREELY choose to remain with God, while the demons freely choose not to repent and refuse God. I wouldn't think it's "can't" but "won't."

[theculturewarrior]

[quote]the point IS, Hitler is with Ghandi now...or do you believe that Ghandi is in heaven?
[/quote]

How in the world would I know that?

Unrelenting will isn't positive, if you use it to kill. It is positive if you use it to avoid bloodshed, and to save your country from war. Jesus's own mouth said, "blessed are the peacemakers." Are you saying Gandhi wasn't a peacemaker? Or did Jesus only intend that for Born Again Christian peacemakers?

So, Hitler, Gandhi, it's all the same? Human beings are totally depraved and incapable of doing good things without a born again conversion experience?

[Quietfire]

[quote]About those Angels:

To the best of my knowledge, this is how the whole Angel thing works:

Angels are inherently good, as stated multiple times above.

Angels & free will: free will is the ability to choose for self in God or for self in opposition to God. We all know that Lucifer many (Bible says 1/3) of the Angels in opposition to God, but what happened then?

I'm pretty sure that the Church's teaching is as follows, though I willingly admit that I cannot find where I heard it:

The Angels either do not have free will since Lucifer's turning away, or do not exercise their free will.

Thus, Satan and the demons cannot be saved, for, by some means, they are locked in their ways.

What does this mean?

It means that YES the angels, whether fallen or in communion with God, are inherently (intrinsically) good. However, their free will (IE an opportunity to act in accordance or against their own nature) has already been exercised, and their decision has been made.

hope that helps![/quote]


And although this could make for a fantastic debate, it seems to be rather simple too.
No man has seen the face of God and lived. The angels see the face of God continually, and yet, they (Satan and those that followed him) denied God. By their own free will it was their one and only choice, since they had seen the face of God, and chose to deny him.

Imagine, to literally look at perfection, and then turn and deny it. To look at the very one who created you,(and you know it!) and still deny Him.
God knew that even had they repented, they would never see him the same way. Not because he is imperfect, but because they allowed the sin into their spirit.

I was reading this somewhere, if I can find it , I will definitely post it.
Sorry to highjack.
Now, back to our original thread topic.

Peace.

Edited June 18, 2004 by Quietfire