RandomProddy Posted June 17, 2004 Share Posted June 17, 2004 (edited) [quote name='JeffCR07' date='Jun 17 2004, 02:56 PM'] Jesus is the one who wins for us the Eternal Good, that is, communion with Him in Heaven, life in the New Jerusalem, glorified bodies, pure wills. These things cannot be obtained simply by "being good" [/quote] This is why you need faith along with works to get grace Matthew, 7, 15 --> 24 Edited June 17, 2004 by RandomProddy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JeffCR07 Posted June 17, 2004 Share Posted June 17, 2004 bingo, I would go so far as to say that this whole discussion of faith and works is based off of a fundamental error: that they are two seperate things. They are not. The Church has always taught that the two go hand-in-hand. I would go further (I hope im not making a heretical statement here) that they come hand in hand because they are two aspects that define one devotion to Christ as God. Faith without works is dead, just as a man cut in half is dead. Works cannot bring eternal life without faith because, again it is a man cut in half. Works and Faith are one Love, to try to seperate the two is like trying to seperate Christ's prayers in Garden from his Death on the Cross. His will, his Faith, was submitted to God perfectly in the Garden, and was manifested in deed when he died for us. Together, the two form one act of Love. It just makes sense... - Your Brother in Christ, Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomProddy Posted June 17, 2004 Share Posted June 17, 2004 (edited) [quote name='JeffCR07' date='Jun 17 2004, 03:25 PM'] It just makes sense... - Your Brother in Christ, Jeff [/quote] Yep, ain't it great? If anyone has a hard time picturing it, consider this scene. God says you need to build a house to get into heaven. You need a good set of foundations (faith) and the house itself. Building the house and it's foundations is your doing (a work). If it's a good house you get in. You can't do it all by yourself so he gives you an architect (catholic/orthodox/anglican church) and a foreman (Jesus). Remember Peter being referred to as "the Rock?". Ever wonder what that referred to, cos it wasn't just him... Matthew 7, 24 --> 29 [color=blue](KJV) 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it. 28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine: 29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.[/color] [color=red](DRV)24 Every one therefore that heareth these my words, and doth them, shall be likened to a wise man that built his house upon a rock, 25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat upon that house, and it fell not, for it was founded on a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these my words, and doth them not, shall be like a foolish man that built his house upon the sand, 27 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat upon that house, and it fell, and great was the fall thereof. 28 And it came to pass when Jesus had fully ended these words, the people were in admiration at his doctrine. 29 For he was teaching them as one having power, and not as the scribes and Pharisees.[/color] Oh, and just for the marian among you, Mary is giving everyone constant cups of tea to keep you going Edited June 17, 2004 by RandomProddy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted June 17, 2004 Share Posted June 17, 2004 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JeffCR07 Posted June 17, 2004 Share Posted June 17, 2004 Just to add onto the house analogy: Imagine now that one of the inherent attributed of the foundation is that it actually causes the house to be built. That is how it is with faith and works. Faith is only Faith if it causes works to be done, and, in the same way, works are only Works if they are done out of Faith - a house cannot exist without a foundation, and a foundation accomplishes nothing without a house. - Your Brother in Christ, Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livin_the_MASS Posted June 17, 2004 Share Posted June 17, 2004 When the rich man came up to Jesus and said good master what must I do to inherit eternal life, Jesus said why do you call me good, who is good but God alone So Lumberjack I would say any good that we do is God working in us, His grace, His credit, His glory. St. Paul said it is no longer I that live but Christ who lives within me. Pax Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the lumberjack Posted June 17, 2004 Author Share Posted June 17, 2004 [quote name='JeffCR07' date='Jun 17 2004, 06:56 AM'] Gandhi is a good example. Also, look at Abraham. He was considered Righteous in the eyes of the Lord, but he also did not know Christ. To be good is just to will that which the Lord wills. Jesus is the one who wins for us the Eternal Good, that is, communion with Him in Heaven, life in the New Jerusalem, glorified bodies, pure wills. These things cannot be obtained simply by "being good" [/quote] Ghandi...hmm... well, Christ said he who is not for me is against me...so, in CHRIST'S words, yeah, Ghandi was evil. no matter the good he did, Ghandi was not for God...therefore, he was God's enemy. do you convict me now of some wrong I do? or for stating Christ's truth? and as for Abraham, how can you compare and Old Testament saint with a NT saint? BC...hello... -_- God bless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theculturewarrior Posted June 17, 2004 Share Posted June 17, 2004 [quote]well, Christ said he who is not for me is against me...so, in CHRIST'S words, yeah, Ghandi was evil. [/quote] Christ also said not to judge. How do you know that Gandhi wasn't for Jesus? Does the Bible say you have to be an evangelical protestant to be "for Jesus?" Now, don't lecture me about relativism or indifferentism, because I know that Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Light. But, to use protestant terms, did Jesus say you have to be "saved" to be "for Him?" I think not. I think one could make the case the Gandhi cast out demons in his name...out of Christians! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the lumberjack Posted June 17, 2004 Author Share Posted June 17, 2004 hmmm...if you wish to insist that a very actively practicing Hindu was for Christ, thats your prerogative... and no one will lecture you on anything...and this isn't about relativism or any other "protestant" assertions that you wish to make. but Christ said it, and Ghandi WASN'T living it... God bless. Christ first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted June 17, 2004 Share Posted June 17, 2004 We are inherently good by virtue of the fact that God created us and continues to create us and drive us toward goodness. We are inclined to sin, but that does not mean we are inherently neutral or inherently evil. We are inherently good because God cannot create evil and we are always inherently what we were when created (Satan is still an angel, I was taught in seminary that even the devils are inherently good, because all creation is inherently good, even though fallen). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the lumberjack Posted June 17, 2004 Author Share Posted June 17, 2004 [quote name='Raphael' date='Jun 17 2004, 12:01 PM'] (Satan is still an angel, I was taught in seminary that even the devils are inherently good, because all creation is inherently good, even though fallen). [/quote] WHAT?! you're taught even the [b]devils[/b] are inherently good??? whoa...thats a bit too much...maybe at one point they were good, but they chose to be evil, just like Adam CHOSE to go against God's commandment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theculturewarrior Posted June 17, 2004 Share Posted June 17, 2004 I'm not sure I understand where Ralph is coming from, but I think you two are talking about two different things. LJ: I personally aspire to be as good a Christian as Gandhi was Hindu. Do you mean to tell me that you are a better person than Gandhi? Or even a better Christian? I don't see how you could justify such an assertion without believing that works are unimportant. Sure, Gandhi thought one religion was as good as another...but he put his faith to practice! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quietfire Posted June 17, 2004 Share Posted June 17, 2004 (edited) This is what Raphael was talking about. [quote]So it was with the angels. God created them with their natural life, pure spirits knowing and loving, and with supernatural life. And some of them chose self, self against God. We know that one was their leader; him we call the devil, the rest demons; he is the named one- Lucifer(although he is never called so in Scripture), Satan which means Enemy, Apollyon which means Exterminator, Beelzebub which means the Lord of the Flies, or Beelzebul, Lord of Filth. The rest are an evil, anonymous multitude.[/quote] Yes, even the same angels who chose pride (self) were created by God and therefore inherently good. They were pure spirits, knowing and loving...as in...good. But, they chose self and separated themselves from God. [quote]in·her·ent adj. Existing as an essential constituent or characteristic;intrinsic. –[/quote] Peace. Edited June 17, 2004 by Quietfire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the lumberjack Posted June 17, 2004 Author Share Posted June 17, 2004 [quote name='theculturewarrior' date='Jun 17 2004, 01:26 PM'] I'm not sure I understand where Ralph is coming from, but I think you two are talking about two different things. LJ: I personally aspire to be as good a Christian as Gandhi was Hindu. Do you mean to tell me that you are a better person than Gandhi? Or even a better Christian? I don't see how you could justify such an assertion without believing that works are unimportant. Sure, Gandhi thought one religion was as good as another...but he put his faith to practice! [/quote] and Ghengis Khan was a great killer of masses... so do I want to be as great a Christian as he was a killer...sure! but that doesn't mean that I'm gonna say, I'm as good a christian as Ghengis Khan was a killer... Ghandi put his faith to practice...so? without God, what do you really have your faith in? nothing. God bless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted June 17, 2004 Share Posted June 17, 2004 To assert that anything created by God is inherently evil is to make God the cause, i.e., the Creator, of evil, and this is clearly false. Human beings, angels, everything created by God is by its very essence good, in that it has existence from Him. But because of the fall, because of the loss of sanctifying grace and the preternatural gifts superadded and contingently given to Adam, the human will has become disordered in its inclinations, and often chooses that which is evil, rather than choosing the good. But this does not mean that human nature is by definition evil, because again, to assert that makes God the creator of evil, and it also makes God responsible for sin, and both of these ideas are clearly false. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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