For Goodness Sake

[Archbishop 10-K]

Going off topic, I try not to use "for goodness' sake" since it makes no logical sense and appaears to be a measly attempt to substitute using God's holy name in vain. I have the same attitude towards "gosh" and other words like that.

[the lumberjack]

[quote name='PedroX' date='Jun 15 2004, 06:34 PM'] Lumberjack,

Are you trying to get us to subscribe to the Calvinist doctrine of "Total Depravity"? Why on earth would we buy into something that was invented in the mid 16th century? Next you'll be asking us to become dispensationalists or members of the Weslayean holiness movement.

peace... [/quote]
Pedro X, MCJust...

I'm not trying to get you to subscribe to anything, so there's no need for you BOTH to jump on my boys in an attempt to make me some kind of religious monster.

I'm just asking for people's opinions and possible biblical backing for whether or not man is inherently good or evil.

--------------------

and phatcatholic,

and what do you say to Romans 3:23 and Romans 3:10???

and are you saying that even outside of the salvation of the Lord we are all children of God? we ARE all created by God, but are we all God's children? What about Romans 8:28-39???

just wondering, brother...God bless

[phatcatholic]

daughter,

i have attempted here to arrange, in piecemeal fashion, the articles in the Catechism which support my claim that man is inherently good. although they are not meant to proceed in this order, i think i have arranged them in a way that is fluid and makes sense. nevertheless, it would also be wise to look up each paragraph and read it within the context from which it was taken.

now, on to the Catechism....


[b]The Thesis for My Argument:[/b]

[b]1700[/b] The dignity of the human person is rooted in his creation in the image and likeness of God [i](article 1)[/i]; it is fulfilled in his vocation to divine beatitude [i](article 2)[/i]. It is essential to a human being freely to direct himself to this fulfillment [i](article 3)[/i]. By his deliberate actions [i](article 4)[/i], the human person does, or does not, conform to the good promised by God and attested by moral conscience [i](article 5)[/i]. Human beings make their own contribution to their interior growth; they make their whole sentient and spiritual lives into means of this growth [i](article 6)[/i]. With the help of grace they grow in virtue [i](article 7)[/i], avoid sin, and if they sin they entrust themselves as did the prodigal son1 to the mercy of our Father in heaven [i](article 8)[/i]. In this way they attain to the perfection of charity.

[b]Supporting Arguments:[/b]

[b]27[/b] The desire for God is written in the human heart, because man is created by God and for God; and God never ceases to draw man to himself. Only in God will he find the truth and happiness he never stops searching for:[list]
[*][b]The dignity of man rests above all on the fact that he is called to communion with God.[/b] This invitation to converse with God is addressed to man as soon as he comes into being. For if man exists it is because God has created him through love, and through love continues to hold him in existence. He cannot live fully according to truth unless he freely acknowledges that love and entrusts himself to his creator.1
[/list][b]30[/b] "Let the hearts of those who seek the LORD rejoice."5 Although man can forget God or reject him, He never ceases to call every man to seek him, so as to find life and happiness. But this search for God demands of man every effort of intellect, a sound will, "an upright heart", as well as the witness of others who teach him to seek God.[list]
[*]You are great, O Lord, and greatly to be praised: great is your power and your wisdom is without measure. [b]And man, so small a part of your creation, wants to praise you: this man, though clothed with mortality and bearing the evidence of sin and the proof that you withstand the proud.[/b] Despite everything, man, though but a small a part of your creation, wants to praise you. You yourself encourage him to delight in your praise, for you have made us for yourself, and our heart is restless until it rests in you.6
[/list][b]369 [/b]Man and woman have been created, which is to say, willed by God: on the one hand, in perfect equality as human persons; on the other, in their respective beings as man and woman. [b]"Being man" or "being woman" is a reality which is good and willed by God: man and woman possess an inalienable dignity which comes to them immediately from God their Creator.240 Man and woman are both with one and the same dignity "in the image of God".[/b] In their "being-man" and "being-woman", they reflect the Creator's wisdom and goodness.

[b]1702[/b] The divine image is present in every man. It shines forth in the communion of persons, in the likeness of the unity of the divine persons among themselves (cf. chapter two).

[b]704[/b] "God fashioned man with his own hands [that is, the Son and the Holy Spirit] and impressed his own form on the flesh he had fashioned, in such a way that even what was visible might bear the divine form."65

[b]374 [/b]The first man was not only created good, but was also established in friendship with his Creator and in harmony with himself and with the creation around him, in a state that would be surpassed only by the glory of the new creation in Christ.

[b]1934[/b] Created in the image of the one God and equally endowed with rational souls, all men have the same nature and the same origin. Redeemed by the sacrifice of Christ, all are called to participate in the same divine beatitude: all therefore enjoy an equal dignity.

[b]1704[/b] The human person participates in the light and power of the divine Spirit. By his reason, he is capable of understanding the order of things established by the Creator. By free will, he is capable of directing himself toward his true good. He finds his perfection "in seeking and loving what is true and good."7

[b]2467[/b] Man tends by nature toward the truth. He is obliged to honor and bear witness to it: "It is in accordance with their dignity that all men, because they are persons . . . are both impelled by their nature and bound by a moral obligation to seek the truth, especially religious truth. They are also bound to adhere to the truth once they come to know it and direct their whole lives in accordance with the demands of truth."262

[b]405 [/b]Although it is proper to each individual,295 original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants. [b]It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted[/b]: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence". Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ's grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.

[b]460[/b] The Word became flesh to make us "partakers of the divine nature":78 "For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God."79 "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God."80 "The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods."81

[b]705[/b] [b]Disfigured by sin and death, man remains "in the image of God," in the image of the Son, but is deprived "of the glory of God,"66 of his "likeness." The promise made to Abraham inaugurates the economy of salvation, at the culmination of which the Son himself will assume that "image"67 and restore it in the Father's "likeness" by giving it again its Glory, the Spirit who is "the giver of life."[/b]


[b]In Summary[/b]

man is inherently good both b/c he is made in the image and likeness of God, and b/c he has w/in him the natural longing to seek after God. although sin both distorts this image in which we were all made and creates w/in us longings for ephemeral pleasures, the image of God w/in us still remains as does our deep-rooted longing for happiness in communion w/ him. thus man was, is, and will always be inherently good.

through both grace in time, and his second coming at the culmination of time, God will take this goodness that is w/in us, perfect it, bring it back to commensurate reflection of his own image, and share his glory w/ us. afterall, "the word became flesh to make us partakers of the divine nature" (CCC, #460).

i embolded some sentences to show their importance in relation to surround sentences. however, every citation is important and adds to my case, so i suggest reading every article, instead of just the highlited sentences.

anyway, i hope this helps and that it all made sense....

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[Aloysius]

this is one of those things that could go in circles with the insane preciseness necessary for wording such things!

man was created to be good. because of his fallen nature he has the inclination to desire evil. if we are baptized out of that fallen nature, we are again good, so long as we sustain that with a life of faith and works which keep faith alive. when we are repentent of our sins and seek God's grace, He restores our goodness.

unbaptized = you're not a Son of God. you aren't even be a daughter of God, for the PC ppl. to say everyone is a child of God because they were created by God is to degrade the radical definition being a "son of God" in the New Covenant gives. we are restored to goodness through the new covenant.

at our source we were created to be good and to desire good things. in our fallen nature, we desire bad things. we were not created to be this way, it is a disorder brought on by the fact humans chose not to live for God but for themselves. so we're disordered, Christ comes to fix us if we repent of our evil ways. If by our free will we choose to allow Christ to restore our Goodness, this is becoming a Son of God (though through baptism the soul is already marked as a son of God, whether or not they be an obedient one). He gave us the power to become sons of God, to have our full goodness restored through Him. We are not evil, we are simply disordered to desire evil. we have by our very nature as human beings a basic human dignity and worth that is good, because we were created by God. we are disordered and fallen such that we desire evil, but we are not evil beings unless we reject God's grace and turn away from him, for then our soul is evil and if we die we would spend eternity in hell.

and i prolly went in circles five times there.

pAx Ω

[the lumberjack]

first off, phatcatholic, I'll get to your post tomorrow...but WHO YOU CALLIN DAUGHTER?!?!

and Al, I understood you.

we are not inherently good. we were designed for it, but Adam's sin took that away. God is the only one that can restore any and all goodness in us.

I get it....I hope.

God bless.

[Apotheoun]

Evil is a lack of being, so to say that it is an existent reality is to make God its cause. Evil is not a co-principle with the good. Evil has no existence properly speaking, in other words, it is nothing, i.e., no thing. Thus anything that exists, because it exists, is by definition good. Although when we speak of good and evil in the moral sphere, because man's will has been disordered by Adam's prevarication, it is possible for man choose evil (i.e., nothing) over the good (i.e, God).

Edited June 16, 2004 by Apotheoun

[Kilroy the Ninja]

According to Don John, who is currently getting ready for bed, man was good when created by God, but due to our FREE WILL, man became inherently pre-disposed to evil when we fell from grace with the ORIGINAL SIN.

Do you deny original sin?

As I stated earlier, some people have to work less at being good than others.

And you're right. God didn't create evil, but he gave us the free will to choose it. And when we choose it, we are evil.

But this is a debate that Phatmass cannot contain. It has raged on for centuries and will continue until the Second Coming.

But by all means, debate on. Have fun. Knock yourselves out.

[Apotheoun]

[quote]Do you deny original sin?[/quote]

Of course I don't deny original sin, because it is a dogma of the Catholic faith. But I refuse to hold a Calvinist view of original sin. Man's nature, that is, his essential existence, is not in any way corrupted or destroyed by the fall, because the fall didn't involve the loss of anything natural to man as man, but was the loss of the supernatural gift of sanctifying grace and the removal of the preternatural gifts (i.e., integrity, infused knowledge, immortality, and impassibility). Thus man in his human nature is essentially identical to Adam, but he lacks the supernatural and preternatural gifts that elevated Adam's nature beyond its natural capacities, and so we can speak of human nature as wounded, but not as destroyed or as inherently evil or corrupt. The Church rejected any notion of inherent evil long before the rise of Calvin and the errors of the Reformation. The Cappadocian Fathers in particular explained the nature of evil, and how it is not essential to man, or in anyway an existent, i.e., created reality. Evil is the relative absence of the good in the will of the creature, and it is only because of Adam's fall that man can choose evil in the moral sphere. Freewill rightly used can only choose the good. The danger in saying anything other than this is that one will will fall into the heresy of dualism, and the Church rejected that heresy when she condemned Gnosticism and Manicheanism.

Edited June 16, 2004 by Apotheoun

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Jun 16 2004, 12:41 AM']phatcatholic, 

and what do you say to Romans 3:23 and Romans 3:10???[/quote]
lumberjack,

if i have EVER been familiar w/ a verse, it has been Romans 3:23. hehe, i think the only other verse that has been quoted to me as often is 2 Tim 3:16......but that's an aside

as for the scripture you cited, first lets provide the verses in question:

[b]Rom 3:10 [/b]As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

[b]Rom 3:23 [/b]For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

now, it is of initial importance to realize that the entire third chapter of romans should be understood w/in the context of the tensions between the jews and the gentiles. both sides think they are greater in the sight of God, especially the Jews b/c they received the law of moses and they were God's "chosen people." so, to prove that the Jews are no greater, Paul cites the Psalms--from which both 3:10 and 3:23 are taken--which is a lament of observed sinfulness directed specifically to the Jews. in doing so, he reveals that, despite the ways in which God has favored them, they are still sinful and consequently no greater then the gentile who receives God's word w/o these favors.

my understanding of the context of these verses is further supported by the chapters in Romans that lead up to them (especially chapter 2), as well as the verses in Rom 3 that lead up to verse 23. these culminating verses are essentially a hypothetical dialogue between Paul and the Jews in which the Jew tries to argue that his transgressions have not hindered this claim to higher status, while Paul responds rebuking every attempt.

[i][b]based on context alone we find that the words "none are righteous" are meant not as an expose` on all humanity, but as a lament (a literary device characteristically exaggerated in nature) meant specifically for the Jews.[/b][/i]

this is all the more affirmed by scripture verses which, taken as a whole, force us to admit one of two things:

1. Rom 3:10 and 3:23 are not meant as all-encompassing claims of every single man
2. the bible contradicts itself.

first, we shall deal w/ Rom 3:10:[list]
[*]As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
[/list]however, Rom 3:10-12 is a reference to Psalms 14:2-3, which is a direct address to the sinfulness of the Jews. Psalms 14:2-3 reads as follows:[list]
[*][b]2 [/b]The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
[b]3 [/b]They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
[/list]surrounding verses from Psalms show that "none are righteous" is not as all encompassing as one may think--that men are indeed righteous. let's look at the verses from Psalms again:

[b]Psalm 14:2-3[/b]
[b]2 [/b]The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, [b]and seek God[/b].
[b]3[/b] They are [b]all gone aside[/b], they are [b]all together become filthy[/b]: there is [b]none that doeth good[/b], no, not one.[list]
[*]Yet in the immediately preceding Psalm, David proclaims "I trusted in your steadfast love...." (13:5), which certainly is "seeking" after God!

And in the very next Psalm he refers to "those who walk blamelessly, and do what is right...." (15:2). Even two verses later he writes that "...God is with the company of the righteous."

Psalms 112:5 refers to a "good man" (Heb. [i]tob[/i]), as does the book of Proverbs repeatedly (11:23, 12:2, 13:22, 14:14,19), using the same word, [i]tob[/i], which appears in Ps 14:2-3. And references to righteous men are innumerable (e.g., Job 17:9, 22:19, Ps 5:12, 32:11, 34:15, 37:16,32, Mt 9:13, 13:17, 25:37,46, Rom 5:19, Heb 11:4, Jas 5;16, 1 Pet 3:12, 4:18, etc., etc.).
[/list]this would seem to refute your claim that no man is righteous (and w/ it the logical conclusion that man is inherently evil)


as for [b]Rom 3:23 [/b]("all have sinned"), context and scriptural verses refute this claim in a similar fashion (for evidence of this, go [url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=13537#"][b]here[/b][/url] and read my [b]third post[/b] on that page). however, i would like to take a different approach to this verse.

lets suppose that all--as in every single person--have indeed sinned. does this mean that we are inherently evil? i say it does not. first, it is important to define what makes us inherently good, then to determine if our sinfulness somehow erases this goodness.

in my estimation, and from what i have been able to discern from the bible and the Catechism, two things make us inherently good:
1. we are made in the image and likeness of God
2. we have w/in us the natural longing for communion w/ him.

as long as we have these things we are inherently good, b/c these are good things that we have, and they are ours by our very nature. now, does sin prove these non-existant or null and void? i contend that neither the sins we comit [b]nor even the sin we inheret from Adam[/b] does such a thing. although sin both distorts this image in which we were all made and creates w/in us longings for things other than God, the image of God w/in us still remains as does our deep-rooted longing for happiness in communion w/ him. thus man was, is, and will always be inherently good.

the devil can do nothing to take away the personal dignity that has been given to us by God from the moment of our conception. though he may try desperately to convince us that we are worthless, we know that we have high-esteem [i][b]in the Lord[/b][/i] and a [b]natural goodness[/b] that the devil can never take away.

as a side note, i look at the theory of "total depravity" and see w/in it an evil disguised as good. afterall, on the surface it appears as though this doctrine exalts God, for we can do nothing w/o Him. however, underneath the surface, the free will that God has given us is undermined, as is the natural inclination he has placed w/in us to know, love, and serve him. thus, the doctrine of "total depravity" rejects the dignity of the human person that is truly ours. since this dignity is the foundation of social and moral ethics, bad things are sure to come when we deny this truth as inherently ours.

[quote]and are you saying that even outside of the salvation of the Lord we are all children of God?  we ARE all created by God, but are we all God's children?  What about Romans 8:28-39???[/quote]
i will address the remainder of your questions in another post.

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[Guest JeffCR07]

Speaking on the nature of man, many have said some of this stuff already, but I would like to sum up the Church's teaching

God created man, and man, alone among all the creations was "very good." However, with the Fall of Adam, we have in our souls what many people refer to as a "stain" but what could more properly be called a "hole" or a "tear." We humans were created to be individual beings, with our own free will, but eternally in communion with God (ie, living in a state of Grace). By original sin, we lost that communion with him and are "fallen"

"Fallen" does not = evil, for we are, even still, created in Gods image. That is why men of all times and lands have sought the worship of God: We are made in his image and his goodness is part of our being.

Through Baptism, original sin is removed. This is like "patching up" the "rip" or "tear." However, its not perfect (and you can still see that the patch has covered up the rip). This is "concupiscense." It is our tendency towards sin, and it is why, even after baptism, we are not perfect. Think of it as the afteraffect of Original Sin.

So, a one sentence summary of human nature of someone who is Baptised?

[i]We are inherently good, though we have a tendency towards sin[/i]

hope that helps!

- Your Brother in Christ, Jeff

[Apotheoun]

Jeff, well said.

God bless,
Todd

Edited June 16, 2004 by Apotheoun

[the lumberjack]

[quote]Through Baptism, original sin is removed. This is like "patching up" the "rip" or "tear." However, its not perfect (and you can still see that the patch has covered up the rip). This is "concupiscense." It is our tendency towards sin, and it is why, even after baptism, we are not perfect. Think of it as the afteraffect of Original Sin.[/quote]

first off, repenting of your sins, turning from them, and receiving Christ as your saviour is what fills the "hole" you speak of...but lets not debate that here.

-------

we were created to be good and live in communion with God, no one denies that.

Adam's fall stained us and took that goodness away...therefore, because there is a tendency to do evil, man is not inherently good...without God, no one is good.

I see what you're saying Jeff, but Adam's introduction of sin is what makes man not inherently good...we may do good things...but that does not make us good.

as kilroy stated before, we're doing things to look out for number 1...so without God (and even sometimes with, because of our flesh that tries to rise up) our "good" deeds are in vain, because we seek only our own gain.

God bless.

[Apotheoun]

[quote]therefore, because there is a tendency to do evil, man is not inherently good[/quote]

If man is not inherently good in his being, then God as his Creator is not inherently good in His being either, and this we know is false. God is not simply the Creator of the human race, He is the Creator of each one of us, individually, and thus to assert that we are inherently evil, is to assert that our cause and Creator is as well.

[the lumberjack]

we have the capabilities to do many things, and we are created by God, and while He would will for all of us to come to Him and experience the fullness of His love and truth in His son Jesus Christ, our lack of communion with Him leaves us to wallow in the mire that is our sinful nature, which seeks nothing but to fulfill itself...

am I wrong?

without God, we are nothing...less than nothing...

it is not until we come to God that we are both Creation and Child of God, and that His goodness is fully made effect in us.

God bless.

Christ first.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Jun 16 2004, 11:09 AM'] we have the capabilities to do many things, and we are created by God, and while He would will for all of us to come to Him and experience the fullness of His love and truth in His son Jesus Christ, our lack of communion with Him leaves us to wallow in the mire that is our sinful nature, which seeks nothing but to fulfill itself...

am I wrong?

without God, we are nothing...less than nothing...

it is not until we come to God that we are both Creation and Child of God, and that His goodness is fully made effect in us.

God bless.

Christ first. [/quote]
The problem I have with your position is centered on your ascribing evil to man's very being, to his very existence as man. This is clearly false, and for two reasons: (1) because God is the Creator of man's being, not simply in a general sense, but in the case of each and every single existing human being, and so to say that man is naturally or inherently evil, is to make God the Creator of evil, and this is false; and (2) if man is inherently evil, if he is evil by his very nature and existence, then it follows that he would not be responsible for his sins, because God as his Creator made him inherently evil, and so God would be responsible for each and every sin committed by a man, and this is false.

Now as far as being good is concerned, clearly it is always based upon God, who is the source of all that is good, both in the natural created order and in the supernatural order of grace. The distinction that the Catholic Church makes is between created, i.e., natural goods, things and actions which are good in their object but which cannot bring man to salvation because they are purely natural or created; and things which are supernaturally good, that is, things and actions that are elevated by grace to a participation in God's life and energy, and which as a consequence exceed any natural capacity of man. The supernatural gift of sanctifying grace (i.e., deifying grace) is required for salvation, no naturally good thing or action by itself can bring man to a his supernatural destiny, only grace can do that.

Edited June 16, 2004 by Apotheoun