dairygirl4u2c Posted June 14, 2004 Share Posted June 14, 2004 (edited) Hi! I am wondering if anyone here could tell me how to tell the difference between infallible and fallible decrees. Some say everything that is decreed in the Catechism should be treated as infallible to the extent that Catholics have to follow it, but not everything is ultimately infallible. So ultimately what is and is not infallible? Does the Catholic Church have to wait until a decree is made ex cathedra to know that it ultimately is infallible to the fullest extent of the law? Thanks! Edited June 14, 2004 by dairygirl4u2c Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted June 14, 2004 Share Posted June 14, 2004 Catholics should faithfully hold to the whole Catholic faith. Generally there really aren't many problems that arise, however lets say a priests gives a homily and mistakingly says we are "saved by faith alone" (haha). His statement isn't protected by any certian infallibility. Only when the Pope speaks in "ex-cathedra", that is, "from the chair" is his specific teaching protected from infallibility. The Catholic faith in general is protected from doctrinal and moral error. Also look at it this way: A doctrine should generally be believed, but a dogma is specifically protected from error. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amarkich Posted June 14, 2004 Share Posted June 14, 2004 Something that should be noted is that any Ecumenical Council enjoys infallibility when declaring dogma (with the exception of Vatican II insofar as it states itself to be simply pastoral and to have not declared any new dogma). This is asserted and proclaimed by Vatican I (I apologize that I cannot find the actual document of the Council and quote, but I would be glad to consult other sources to acquire this information if you are interested). God bless. EENS, Adam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JeffCR07 Posted June 14, 2004 Share Posted June 14, 2004 yea, please refer to the post on infallability, it answeres all the quesitons on what is infallable and what isn't Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the lumberjack Posted June 14, 2004 Share Posted June 14, 2004 no catholic in the world would be able to hold a job if they were to read and learn every decree ever made by the Catholic Church. how many have ever read EVERY article of every council and other miscellaneous documents EVER produced by the Catholic Church? this is why I have seen more than one Catholic that I know leave...too much paperwork. too much legalism. this is why I've seen many a catholic living as satanists, atheists, and other less desirable things. I'm not just speaking for the catholics I know, but for the blogs and discussion boards I've read and profiles I've read online. but hey, its just me blubbering on. God Bless Christ first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archbishop 10-K Posted June 14, 2004 Share Posted June 14, 2004 Actually, I see the extensive documentation of the Magisterium as evidence of the Church being the "true religion," and one of the factors that brought be into Christ. While you can still be a simpleton and be a good Catholic, other denominations and religions are extremely vague, with no common authority or interpretation thereof, and basically with no grasp of absolute truth. Others will say, "follow the Bible." That gives me almost no certainty on anything since the Sacred Scripture does not define itself. On the other hand, a Catholic can refer me to a wealth of Church sources so as to clear up virtually any theological question I may have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted June 14, 2004 Share Posted June 14, 2004 [quote]no catholic in the world would be able to hold a job if they were to read and learn every decree ever made by the Catholic Church.[/quote] I'm working on it and holding a job and marriage just fine. [quote]how many have ever read EVERY article of every council and other miscellaneous documents EVER produced by the Catholic Church?[/quote] How long would it take to read every document or book produced by a Protestant over the past 500 years? Have you done it? [quote]this is why I have seen more than one Catholic that I know leave...too much paperwork. too much legalism. this is why I've seen many a catholic living as satanists, atheists, and other less desirable things.[/quote] Did you leave America when Bill Clinton was caught in a scandal? Would you leave your church if the pastor was caught embezzling funds? Why should Catholics leave the Catholic Church just because there are sinners. Too much legalism? Hardly. What you call legalism the Bible calls fruits of the Spirit. Yep, that's right, those branches already attached to the tree will be cut off and thrown into the fire because they did not produce. And yet how much producing is enough? Simply to remain in a state of grace. Is it hard? It isn't a cake walk, but Christ never said the Christian life was. He alluded that it would be like picking up your cross and carrying it. And why would someone be carrying a cross? After all, as protestants say, "Why would we not want to bare fruits?" [quote]I'm not just speaking for the catholics I know, but for the blogs and discussion boards I've read and profiles I've read online. but hey, its just me blubbering on.[/quote] yep, and you are grabbing at straws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sammy Blaze Posted June 14, 2004 Share Posted June 14, 2004 Knowledge is Power ~S. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amarkich Posted June 14, 2004 Share Posted June 14, 2004 Great post, Brother Adam. EENS, Adam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted June 14, 2004 Share Posted June 14, 2004 Hi Adam (woah), What does EENS mean? -Adam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted June 14, 2004 Share Posted June 14, 2004 actually, when it comes down to it, it's quite simple. seek truth, pray, and when you have a question look it up in the Catechism, ask someone who's been through seminary, ask a friend who's Catholic, email an expert at EWTN or something. You try to make it out to be some complicated thing. it is not. no Catholic is required to know all truth, only to seek all truth and to believe that truth is to be found in the Church Jesus Christ promised would be led by the spirit into all truth. It's very very simple, otherwise how could it have sustained itself in an age in which the general public was illiterate? you learn through prayer, you learn through the experience of all who are in the Body of Christ. Our Church is True. She is not legalistic, she simply claims to be True and she tells her people that because it is true in matters of faith or morals, if they wanna know something they should consult her. They should not obsess over whether something she says is infallible to the fullest degree or not. That's what people who get too over-prideful over their own intellect do. Sincerely, a sheep of Jesus' flock who will follow the direction the sheepdogs bark at me to go. PAX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dairygirl4u2c Posted June 14, 2004 Author Share Posted June 14, 2004 [quote]How long would it take to read every document or book produced by a Protestant over the past 500 years? Have you done it?[/quote] Just want you to note that non-Catholic's faith generally don't require us to read every document made by someone with a similar religion. Perhaps it should require that, but that's beside the point. I do agree that lumberjack for the most part grabs at straw what with his constant justifying himself by the fact of the existence sinners in the Catholic Church and such. He should be more technical in historical academia and such. He's gotta fight fire with fire or else he'll never get anywhere. [quote]Also look at it this way: A doctrine should generally be believed, but a dogma is specifically protected from error. [/quote] How far does that "should" go in "should generally believe"? I realize if you were a good Catholic, you would follow the doctrine, but, hypothetically, are there any exceptions to that rule? And I haven't really gotten an answer so my question then is this: How do you tell the difference between doctrine and dogma? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archbishop 10-K Posted June 14, 2004 Share Posted June 14, 2004 [quote name='Brother Adam' date='Jun 14 2004, 02:52 PM'] Hi Adam (woah), What does EENS mean? -Adam [/quote] I believe that means Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus, right? (Outside the Church, no salvation) As his sig says. And a good one at that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted June 14, 2004 Share Posted June 14, 2004 [quote]Hi Adam (woah), What does EENS mean? -Adam [/quote] extra ecclesium nulla sallus i'll add my two cents to it though, that is also in line with constant Church teaching Extra Ecclesium (Explicatus et Implicatus) Nulla Sallus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTHUS Posted June 14, 2004 Share Posted June 14, 2004 [quote name='Brother Adam' date='Jun 14 2004, 02:22 PM'] Catholics should faithfully hold to the whole Catholic faith. Generally there really aren't many problems that arise, however lets say a priests gives a homily and mistakingly says we are "saved by faith alone" (haha). His statement isn't protected by any certian infallibility. Only when the Pope speaks in "ex-cathedra", that is, "from the chair" is his specific teaching protected from infallibility. The Catholic faith in general is protected from doctrinal and moral error. Also look at it this way: A doctrine should generally be believed, but a dogma is specifically protected from error. [/quote] Although, if Peter Kreeft is right on the money in his exegesis of the Council of Trent, then Sola Fide is [i]materially[/i] correct, but not formally... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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