Application Process

[AccountDeleted]

Well we must be odd because the 1st meeting with an aspirant (live-in) I go over the Constitutions, back history, way to read it, etc., Our house directory, our ratio formationis and our guidelines for postulants. And I hear myself talking for quite awhile trying to be as honest as I can. By the way there is this thing called "the Dominican secret" that I've heard of. I have no idea what that is all about. It's not from the friars or the nuns! Sure we do have secrets because we want to keep some things a surprise! For example...

Hah! Got ya! 

As for the questions nunsense posed I have been asked those and similar questions many times or I have brought them up myself. 

There is a point though that we ALL MUST ADMIT if we have entered religious life that we don't hear half of what the vocation directress is saying because we are hearing it with our own ideal of what religious life is. Sort of like when you go into a marriage. 

The other piece of the picture is that I don't know who began the idea that particularly women's monasteries were supposed to be perfect paragons of holiness! The monastery is the place of struggle for conversion and goes on one's whole life! There is a reason why we each ask for God's mercy and that of the community when we receive the habit and make profession!!! So, that implies weakness and the effects of original sin. So, the important this is how does a community live with its sinfulness! 

I think active and monastic and contemplative life approach the process of entering differently. In monastic life there is more of this sense of one needs to come in and test and be tested by the life. 

Does that help anyone?

Sr MC - It certainly does help, and it also explains in part why your community is doing so well (I'm sure the wonderful people like yourself also contribute to your success!)  . Thank you for your contribution.

Iggy- you questioned the 'generational' thing but I wasn't referring to calendar age so much as to when the sisters were 'formed'. Pre Vatican 2 and post Vatican 2 formation has been very different, and it has changed over the years as well. A nun who entered in 1950 would have had very different formation than a nun who entered in 1970 or one who entered in 1990, 2010 etc. And some nuns (especially the strictly cloistered ones where I have lived) tend to stick to the ways of their own individual formation as being the only 'right' way. So, when the Novice Mistress changes, formation changes to reflect the way she was formed. Some communities find it difficult to accept that women entering today have a completely different view of the world, and they have already been 'formed' in part by that world view. Of course, sisters still need to go through religious formation but that formation has to take into account the very different experiences of life that these women have been through compared with those who entered in the 30s, 50s, 70s etc. and not expect that a cookie cutter mold will work to shape them all. The communities that prosper today are those like SrMC's and Sr Marie's, that take into account the changing times as well as the unchangeable truths.

But in addition to the actual formation process itself, women living together in community (especially a cloistered one) can become insular and 'cultish' (I hate to use that word because it causes such emotional reactions but it does apply in some cases) and be subject to all kinds of power struggles, ambitions, cliques, and psychological abuses. And in more than one community, I did not find any measures in place to protect the postulant from the repercussions of this dysfunctionality.

But I certainly don't want to focus on the negative aspects of some communities because there are also so many good ones and the bad ones will presumably just slowly find they have no vocations. It has been unfortunate that I chose to go into communities that were not healthy - part of that was my choice but part of it was that at my age, I had very limited choice as well. 

KatherineH you said, 'Joining any community requires so much trust in God, the superiors, and the other sisters.' This is true, but trusting in God or in the community does not mean that the result will always be what one anticipates or hopes for, and trusting in God doesn't always mean a happy ending. If one asks God for patience, He might make them wait for a long time to teach them this virtue.If one asks for trust, it doesn't mean He will make sure the situation works out - instead He might put them in impossible situations where trust in Him alone is required. That in itself is a great gift, but not necessarily the one that was hoped for.

If I were young again and discerning religious life, I would be looking for a community that offers honesty and transparency, and that also makes it clear (as Sr MC did in her post) that monasteries are not places where people are 'perfect paragons of holiness' but are human beings making an effort to live together to love and serve God. I am very inspired by the religious on this site who sound as if they live in very human but healthy communities, and by the discerners who are using common sense to find healthy communities of their own. 

 

[Spem in alium]

These are all very interesting comments.  One thing I like about the community I will shortly be entering is that they have a pre-postulancy.  Frankly, I don't know why they don't just call it an aspirancy - but anyway, we wear our own clothes and live in the community with no commitments on either side.  In December, if I am acceptable to the community and I want to enter, I will begin postulancy.   I think over 3 months of getting to know the community will be very helpful.

This stage (we call it affiliacy) has been so important for me! This first stage will be longer for me (around a year), and while initially I really wanted it to go quickly so that I could apply for postulancy, having this time has been such a blessing...I've learned so much about myself and my Sisters, about my psychological and spiritual makeup, about how to live in community, and I was even recently lucky enough to travel to Rome, stay at our motherhouse, and pray before the tomb of our Foundress. I initially wore whatever I wanted, but several weeks after I entered my director suggested I wear similar clothing to what the Sisters wear (white/grey with black), and that has really helped foster a sense of unity and belonging. I have people (usually family) asking me when I'll become a postulant, but it's all in God's hands and on His time. I just let it be  Cherish your time as a pre-postulant. My own has been a great blessing, and I hope yours will be too. 

[katherineH]

Do you think that sense of "secrecy" is more common in monastic life? The communities that I've discerned with that didn't allow candidates and discerners to view the Constitutions were both active (Daughters of Charity of SVP and RSM-Alma).  

[TheresaThoma]

I'm wondering if perhaps communities not allowing a discerner to read their constitutions has more to do with where the discerner is at in their discernment with the community rather than an outright refusal for anyone to read the Constitutions before entering. A "no" might have just meant "not at this point". 

Sr Mary Catharine I am wondering what your response would be if someone who had not yet made their live in/aspirancy asked to read your communities Constitutions. 

In my own discernment I have noticed that I have been gradually given more access/freedom the longer I have discerned with the community. Both in terms of tasks and in terms of things they have had me read.

[Sr Mary Catharine OP]

Well, I was given the Constitutions to read at my 1st visit and I have given them to a woman who is visiting when I feel the circumstances warrant it. I wouldn't probably give them to someone totally new to religious because they wouldn't know how to read them correctly. But someone who has been with another Order I would probably give it to her.

Actually, I think our constitutions are online somewhere! Yep! http://www.op.org/en/official-documents (Thanks to us! I had an aspirant type them up a few years ago!) :-)

To answer Katherine H, I don't think monastic communities are more "secretive". The life is meant to be lived! It's not just a lot of rules and regulations like learning the driving manual.

[Spem in alium]

Well, I was given the Constitutions to read at my 1st visit and I have given them to a woman who is visiting when I feel the circumstances warrant it. I wouldn't probably give them to someone totally new to religious because they wouldn't know how to read them correctly. But someone who has been with another Order I would probably give it to her.

Actually, I think our constitutions are online somewhere! Yep! http://www.op.org/en/official-documents (Thanks to us! I had an aspirant type them up a few years ago!) :-)

To answer Katherine H, I don't think monastic communities are more "secretive". The life is meant to be lived! It's not just a lot of rules and regulations like learning the driving manual.

This is amazing. The fact that such a document is online would, I believe, really be helpful in discernment. What a great idea!  Re. Constitutions, i think it's also important to consider the language they are in (i.e. if they have been translated), how frequently they are reviewed or updated by the Congregation, and if how frequently Sisters should read or draw from them. 

 

[puellapaschalis]

The constitutions of the English Benedictine Congregation are online (first link).

Those of the American-Cassinese Congregation here.

I don't think Solesmes is available online.

But then, Benedictines being Benedictines, even within a congregation each House will do things differently; the document that specifies that tend to be much less readily available for outsiders to see without a decent reason.

[Egeria]

The Cistercians of the Strict Observance are here. 

[Sr Mary Catharine OP]

This is amazing. The fact that such a document is online would, I believe, really be helpful in discernment. What a great idea!  Re. Constitutions, i think it's also important to consider the language they are in (i.e. if they have been translated), how frequently they are reviewed or updated by the Congregation, and if how frequently Sisters should read or draw from them. 

 

IF a congregation is pontifical probably the original is in Latin.
Dominican constitutions are supposed to be in a regular process of renewal. This is why the friars' constitutions have NEVER BEEN APPROVED and we were in the same set up until the 1917 code of canon law. Now that we are "locked" in a process of needing to go to the Holy See for approvals it takes something away from our manner of government.

The Rule, Constitutions and monastery directory are a regular part of life. A portion is read each evening at meals as well.

[LoveZoe11]

yes! I joined in October 2013, so two years in the Fall.  I'm hoping to enter a community next summer, so I was worried that I would miss the 3 year mark by just a few months! That would be quite unfortunate  When did you join?

Thanks for the reference - it looks like it's up to the discretion of the community.  

Congrats Katherine! Which community, is it the Daughters of Charity?

[Spem in alium]

IF a congregation is pontifical probably the original is in Latin.Dominican constitutions are supposed to be in a regular process of renewal. This is why the friars' constitutions have NEVER BEEN APPROVED and we were in the same set up until the 1917 code of canon law. Now that we are "locked" in a process of needing to go to the Holy See for approvals it takes something away from our manner of government.

The Rule, Constitutions and monastery directory are a regular part of life. A portion is read each evening at meals as well.

I was thinking more in terms of translations of translations. Do you know if that usually happens, or are all translations usually done from the original?

My understanding is that our Constitutions are also supposed to be regularly reviewed (regular review is, to me, a sign of growth and vitality). We have just had our General Chapter, where I believe some review was done. My superior has mentioned a few times that it would be worthwhile to read some of our Constitution (called "Covenant of Love") before meals, and some Sisters have echoed her; this used to be done, and I'm not sure if it continues in some of our houses. 

 

[katherineH]

Congrats Katherine! Which community, is it the Daughters of Charity?

Thanks! I'm not fully certain about a community yet.  I have visited with the RSM-Alma a few times and had some reservations, but since then I have visited other communities and realized that my concerns were not specific to the community but with religious life in general (e.g. "I don't know if I can pray this much every day.") I'm going to visit the sisters in Tulsa again in September and if that goes well hopefully go on a discernment retreat in Michigan.  They are the community that keeps coming to mind when I picture myself as a sister, and I love their charism and Catherine McAuley.  We will see what happens. I'll keep you updated!

This is amazing. The fact that such a document is online would, I believe, really be helpful in discernment. What a great idea!  Re. Constitutions, i think it's also important to consider the language they are in (i.e. if they have been translated), how frequently they are reviewed or updated by the Congregation, and if how frequently Sisters should read or draw from them. 

 

Well, I was given the Constitutions to read at my 1st visit and I have given them to a woman who is visiting when I feel the circumstances warrant it. I wouldn't probably give them to someone totally new to religious because they wouldn't know how to read them correctly. But someone who has been with another Order I would probably give it to her.

Actually, I think our constitutions are online somewhere! Yep! http://www.op.org/en/official-documents (Thanks to us! I had an aspirant type them up a few years ago!) :-)

To answer Katherine H, I don't think monastic communities are more "secretive". The life is meant to be lived! It's not just a lot of rules and regulations like learning the driving manual.

The constitutions of the English Benedictine Congregation are online (first link).

Those of the American-Cassinese Congregation here.

I don't think Solesmes is available online.

But then, Benedictines being Benedictines, even within a congregation each House will do things differently; the document that specifies that tend to be much less readily available for outsiders to see without a decent reason.

This is so interesting to see.  When I asked if I could see a community's constitutions I got the impression I had just asked to read their diary.  Knowing that there are communities that are so transparent about their constitutions makes me feel less weird for asking

[sr.christinaosf]

I actually was asked to type our Rule and Constitutions as a postulant; I shared a little story about this within an article on Our Franciscan Fiat.  It was very good for me. 

[Benedictus]

Spem, Benedictus, Marigold and KatherineH - thanks for the feedback. What you all have written is very interesting to me. I do believe that part of the problem is a generational attitude, part of it is a power imbalance (perhaps also a generational attitude) and part of it depends upon the community itself and what it allows as part of the introductory process.

I think in some cases, there is also the desperation that can accompany someone who doesn't quite fit all the criteria (e.g. age) so they don't have the same choices that someone else might have.  And when one is very limited in their choices, it's easy to settle for something that just isn't right. I suppose some communities do that as well - they want vocations so they might accept an applicant that they know isn't right for them. It reminds me of two unmarried people who are at an age when they feel desperate to get married so even though they know they aren't quite right for each other, they keep dating in the hope that something will change or they will be able to convince themselves that being married to the wrong person is better than not being married at all. In some cases, it just could work, but it takes an awful lot of effort from both parties. If only one is trying, then things are going to fall apart. 

As for not being able to read the Constitutions before entering - yes, I came across that as well and it struck me as quite odd. Someone who is going to devote their entire life to a community would find it much easier to make a decision based on such a document and it does seem rather one-sided that a community can ask for any information at all from a candidate but not be expected to provide full information about themselves to the candidate.

It might be interesting to hear from some of our religious on here about this practice, and whether their communities do it, and if so, why. I have never been a secretive person (although I am a very private one) so I find it difficult to understand secrecy unless there is a very good reason for it (like national defense or something else of such a serious nature). Benedictus, I was basically told the same thing about keeping my mouth shut and not asking too many questions or having opinions until after final vows. From this I started noticing a real change in sisters after final profession. It seems their health was perfect and they were completely docile until afterwards, when they knew they couldn't be asked to leave. Then, it seemed like all of a sudden, there were reasons why Sister X couldn't participate in some community activity or other, illness became more prevalent, and personalities changed. It was fascinating to watch but disconcerting to live with. I called it 'the black veil syndrome' because they got their black veil at final profession. 

I know this thread is about the application process for the discerner, so I won't go on anymore,  but it just made me think about it from the discerner's point of view as well, with regard to checking out the community. Thanks for all the input everyone.

 

One reason for not making constitutions public, I guess, could be that people could misconstrue what is written, maybe leading them to be hasty and not continue discernment. However, at least in the majority of cases, the documents are fairly clear and would, I think, be an aid in discernment.

I was introduced to them fairly early in my discernment and we have to spend time as novices reading and discussing them (actually taking sections and presenting them to each other). We also study the key documents of the General Congregations of our society too. However, when I discerned with other communities, especially monastic ones, their constitutions weren't given early on -  the rule and living the routine was seen as fundamental. So maybe it's a difference is focus and need?

Nunsense - what you describe about nuns after vows doesn't sound healthy. It sounds like some sort of psychosomatic issues were going on. Such things should be dealt with and tackled through the structures of the community -  but, yes, I can imagine that's not always well managed everywhere and the ability to tackle such issues may not always be good.

In terms of the advice I was given - I think the advice to develop docility was wise. It, at least in how it was mostly explained to me, was to see it as a spiritual practice for developing humility and patience. I don't have active voice, as such, before taking final vows so I might as well make the most of turning it into a spiritual exercise The practical benefit is that it means I am forced to listen and observe without trying to influence or assert anything. It has been helpful -  mostly as I practice self awareness and answering questions without actually taking a side or a personal position. It can be frustrating, especially if you're very opinionated and dislike a feeling of disempowerment. Although, the latter is helpful when relating to people with such feelings during apostolates.

In most communities those in formation have to do this for about four years before taking final vows. For others, like me, it's about ten years. One could be cynical and say long formation periods ensure only those who conform or agree with the status quo are accepted  or at the very least, ensures only a few dissenters who have a thick skin and lots of endurance make it

There is the issue, as I think you mentioned, where power dynamics don't necessarily work very well. The sense that a novice feels they have to shut up and remain timid until after final vows is a reflection of that dynamic too. It's a kind of learnt survival technique, I suppose, and can be seen in situations where power is somewhat unequal, even if only for a while, such as at work, in family situations, new groups, religious communities etc. A person joining an institute is vulnerable as, at least in a large part, they are dependent on that community accepting, adopting and nurturing them. I think it becomes clear that a person usually develops strategies, not always good ones, to survive this situation until they meet a designated goal.

In an ideal world a person would only be rejected or discerned out based on whether they had a vocation to the life or not. The reality can be more complicated and messy than that, so a person needs to be cautious and not naive. The problem is that the risk or danger isn't necessarily irrational or absent. There are community members who will, even if not intentionally, take an antagonistic view of someone based certain comments, views, interests or opinions. So the aim becomes to ensure that doesn't happen.

So if a novice, or member in temp vows, knows a priest or superior isn't keen on the tridentine rite then it probably isn't a good idea to say you hope it grows stronger in the church and in that specific community. Agreeing with them, or what you assume they think, won't necessarily help either as they could tell someone else you agree with them. That could cause you issues with another faction or person in the same group. There are ways of tackling it without obviously sitting on the fence, at least that's what I practice doing

Of course, this issue doesn't necessarily go away after final vows as someone may find they are moved, denied certain apostolates, courses or opportunities too. But, at least after final vows, the person isn't simply dismissed based on factors that are dressed up as something else. I guess most people can relate to this, especially if they've worked for some large corporates or something, but it's worth each of us remembering that religious life doesn't necessarily avoid all the human traits that play out elsewhere in the world.

I do wonder though, hearing how some people have been asked to leave a community (or were voted out) and where that had come as a shock to the discerner, whether such issues had been at play and someone hadn't given them a heads up at the start.

Ok -  just realized 2/3 of this post sounds a bit negative, but it's important such things are put out there sometimes. It can be held as being too romantic otherwise.

 

Edited August 20, 2015 by Benedictus

[AccountDeleted]

 

One reason for not making constitutions public, I guess, could be that people could misconstrue what is written, maybe leading them to be hasty and not continue discernment. However, at least in the majority of cases, the documents are fairly clear and would, I think, be an aid in discernment.

I was introduced to them fairly early in my discernment and we have to spend time as novices reading and discussing them (actually taking sections and presenting them to each other). We also study the key documents of the General Congregations of our society too. However, when I discerned with other communities, especially monastic ones, their constitutions weren't given early on -  the rule and living the routine was seen as fundamental. So maybe it's a difference is focus and need?

Nunsense - what you describe about nuns after vows doesn't sound healthy. It sounds like some sort of psychosomatic issues were going on. Such things should be dealt with and tackled through the structures of the community -  but, yes, I can imagine that's not always well managed everywhere and the ability to tackle such issues may not always be good.

In terms of the advice I was given - I think the advice to develop docility was wise. It, at least in how it was mostly explained to me, was to see it as a spiritual practice for developing humility and patience. I don't have active voice, as such, before taking final vows so I might as well make the most of turning it into a spiritual exercise The practical benefit is that it means I am forced to listen and observe without trying to influence or assert anything. It has been helpful -  mostly as I practice self awareness and answering questions without actually taking a side or a personal position. It can be frustrating, especially if you're very opinionated and dislike a feeling of disempowerment. Although, the latter is helpful when relating to people with such feelings during apostolates.

In most communities those in formation have to do this for about four years before taking final vows. For others, like me, it's about ten years. One could be cynical and say long formation periods ensure only those who conform or agree with the status quo are accepted  or at the very least, ensures only a few dissenters who have a thick skin and lots of endurance make it

There is the issue, as I think you mentioned, where power dynamics don't necessarily work very well. The sense that a novice feels they have to shut up and remain timid until after final vows is a reflection of that dynamic too. It's a kind of learnt survival technique, I suppose, and can be seen in situations where power is somewhat unequal, even if only for a while, such as at work, in family situations, new groups, religious communities etc. A person joining an institute is vulnerable as, at least in a large part, they are dependent on that community accepting, adopting and nurturing them. I think it becomes clear that a person usually develops strategies, not always good ones, to survive this situation until they meet a designated goal.

In an ideal world a person would only be rejected or discerned out based on whether they had a vocation to the life or not. The reality can be more complicated and messy than that, so a person needs to be cautious and not naive. The problem is that the risk or danger isn't necessarily irrational or absent. There are community members who will, even if not intentionally, take an antagonistic view of someone based certain comments, views, interests or opinions. So the aim becomes to ensure that doesn't happen.

So if a novice, or member in temp vows, knows a priest or superior isn't keen on the tridentine rite then it probably isn't a good idea to say you hope it grows stronger in the church and in that specific community. Agreeing with them, or what you assume they think, won't necessarily help either as they could tell someone else you agree with them. That could cause you issues with another faction or person in the same group. There are ways of tackling it without obviously sitting on the fence, at least that's what I practice doing

Of course, this issue doesn't necessarily go away after final vows as someone may find they are moved, denied certain apostolates, courses or opportunities too. But, at least after final vows, the person isn't simply dismissed based on factors that are dressed up as something else. I guess most people can relate to this, especially if they've worked for some large corporates or something, but it's worth each of us remembering that religious life doesn't necessarily avoid all the human traits that play out elsewhere in the world.

I do wonder though, hearing how some people have been asked to leave a community (or were voted out) and where that had come as a shock to the discerner, whether such issues had been at play and someone hadn't given them a heads up at the start.

Ok -  just realized 2/3 of this post sounds a bit negative, but it's important such things are put out there sometimes. It can be held as being too romantic otherwise.

 

Benedictus, one thing I am trying very hard to avoid is to come across as totally negative about religious life, but it is true that I have been in my share of really unhealthy and dysfunctional communities. Perhaps any community that will accept me as a postulant isn't one I should be joining? LOL

While I was at one of them, we had a three day Visitation by 3 different Visitators and the report that came out of it was that the community was still using a very unhealthy pre-Vatican 2 model of top down hierarchy that actually caused sisters to be infantalised and made it impossible to develop new leaders in the community, so that the same person was always elected to the office of superior(and needed Vatican approval to do so, but always got it since they are so far removed from day to day life of the community). When the report came back, the superior and council decided to ignore it, wrote their own report back to the Visitators saying that they had got it wrong, and basically just disregarded the report. Since the person in charge was a major superior, the Visitation report really had no binding effect - it could only be a recommendation of improvements, which was not followed. The Bishop wouldn't have gone against the superior in any case, so nothing ever changed and sisters did become psychologically unhealthy which resulted in (as you said) psycho-somatic illnesses as well as stress related psychological ones (only in the black veils of course because they could not be asked to leave).

If I described some of the incredibly strange things that went on in one community in particular, you would be open mouthed in astonishment, but even though it took me some time to recover from what I now consider to be psychological abuse (with a minor in PTSD  ), I am out the other side now and feeling healthier and happier than I have been in a long time. Distance is an incredible perspective.

And despite all of the weird (and wonderful) things that I have been through in religious life, I still adore Jesus and am so happy to be in love with God and (because of Him) people. Today I can look back at the convent experiences and say, 'Forgive them, Father, for they knew not what they did.' And mean it. I do have very strong opinions about some aspects of religious life because of my experiences, but I am always filled with joy to hear about really healthy communities - human but healthy - where things get brought to light and worked out, like happens with a loving family. To me, secrecy is the first step to becoming a cult like environment. There is a difference between confidentiality and secrecy.

Thanks for all your interesting thoughts and perspective.