Application Process

[TheresaThoma]

The application especially the spiritual autobiography also gives members of the community who haven't had as much of a chance to get to know  you a starting place. Also for communities that have larger applicant "classes" a more detailed formal application process probably helps them keep everyone straight!

[AccountDeleted]

This will probably seem controversial for some people, but in hindsight, I think it would be good if the applicant could ask the community to submit itself to an 'application process' (more than just visiting and being 'vetted' by the community). For example, perhaps a whole community could have a psychological assessment, to ascertain whether it is functional and healthy as a community or if it is dysfunctional and has serious problems or issues,and the candidate could be given a copy of the community's 'mental health assessment'.

Now I know this is never going to happen because let's face it, we can't really interview an employer when we apply for a job (although we can do as much due diligence about the company as possible), so it's irrational to assume that we can interview a religious community either - at least not in the same way that they interview applicants. They (like employers) are offering something that the person wants, so they have the option to choose based on lots of information, whereas the applicant must rely on their own limited experiences during the introduction phase, or word of mouth or some research. But in the end, the only way a person can actually assess a community is by living with them as a postulant. Unfortunately for the person involved, if they decide to leave (or are asked to leave), the sense of failure is all on their side. There may be some communities that ask themselves why, or if they could have done anything to help the postulant more, but for the most part, the lack seems to be placed squarely on the applicant/postulant and not on the community.

But, if such a thing could be possible, it would be interesting to ask communities if you could see their last three Visitation reports (often some problems are picked up by Visitators and show up in their reports).

One could also address a set of questions to the superior such as:

• When was the last First Profession of a sister? 
• When was the last Solemn Profession of a sister?
• How many entrants have you had in the last five years and of those entrants, how many have stayed?
• Of those who have left, what was the main reason for them leaving? Why do you think that was?
• Are there any 'bullies' in the community and how is bullying dealt with?
• Are any of the sisters (no names) currently undergoing therapy for stress related issues associated with the life?
• What is the general health of the community? Are many of the sisters physically sick (especially the younger ones)?

etc etc etc

These questions can provide valuable information about the general state of the community. If sisters get sick a lot, need a lot of therapy, come and go a lot, need special dispensations from community activities - this can indicate problems in the community. And if a lot of applicants enter but the last time they had someone make First or Solemn Profession was a long time ago, then I would be asking why they can't seem to hang on to vocations. The finger usually gets pointed at the postulant (she just wasn't a good fit for the community etc) - and if the community can't ask themselves why as well, then they don't really want to know. There is a saying, 'If you always do what you've always done, then you'll always get what you've always got.' If a community is not keeping vocations and they don't wonder why, then it's possible they will end up shutting their doors.

The ideal of religious life is different than the reality in many communities, and it would be so nice to be able to interview sisters and ask real, pertinent questions about their life there (not just their horarium or their apostolate), and the community prior to making the decision to enter. Questions like, 'What did you find the most difficult part of the life when you first entered? How did you deal with that problem and did you receive any assistance in dealing with that problem? Has that problem been resolved or are you learning new ways to cope with it? What new things have arisen that you can share that might be helpful to a new person entering?'

Now I know that none of this is going to happen but sometimes I just like to think about things like this. There are things I discovered after entering a community that sure would have been nice to know beforehand. I doubt it would have made a difference to my entering anyway because one often wears rose coloured glasses and assumes (as most people do) that thing will be different or ok for them. And there is also a strong sacrificial component to religious life that makes one want to endure hardship for the sake of love, not realising that some hardships are unnatural ones. But maybe it would have helped me during the recovery phase afterwards to tell myself, 'I knew they had problems but I chose to enter anyway, so I have to accept responsibility for that.' I spent many hours wondering if certain things really were normal in the community and if the fault was mine or if anyone should have been subjected to some of the strange things that I went through. I had to discuss some things with therapists and priests afterwards just to know what was 'normal' and what was not - what had actually been dysfunctional in the religious community and was not my fault. It's good to accept personal responsibility for one's own failings but no victim should accept responsibility for their abuser's actions.

Anyway, the good thing is that for all those communities that are dying off, there are also a lot that are taking off. There are vibrant, healthy (apparently) communities that are experiencing an increase in numbers and a great retention rate too. They must be doing something right, and that's good news. Just to end on a positive note.  

 

 

Edited August 16, 2015 by nunsense

[Spem in alium]

This is actually interesting, nunsense. I think it is certainly beneficial for orders to review themselves regularly, and for communities to consider their function and make-up, but not entirely sure how this kind of questioning would go between the order and a potential applicant. 

Living in community as an aspirant is so important (actually, I'd say essential). As far as I know, the last aspirant we had here in Australia was back in 2005/2006, and she did not progress to postulancy (but she is still good friends with our Sisters, which was a good sign to me). At the time, there was no opportunity for the aspirant to live in community, and so she would only come to celebrations and prayers occasionally. It is so much easier to discern when you're actually part of the life. I had the opportunity to stay at home with my family and visit the Sisters whenever I could, but I chose to move, and so glad I did, because it's shown me reality rather than what I probably would have had (an ideal) if I was just coming for celebrations, meals, and prayers. It's helped me to see how Sisters work, what their personalities are, how they live, and where I fit in it all. The last is particularly important for me given that I'm going through formation alone (there are no other entrants). 

 

Edited August 16, 2015 by Spem in alium

[marigold]

Thank you ‌PP, Sr. Mary Catharine and veritasluxmea for fleshing out my understanding! It's really interesting to see a different mindset and actually, I can see where it might be really beneficial, if it's taken with a pinch of salt and the understanding that anything anyone says is usually a work in progress. Something that I read that has stuck with me was a monk saying that he appreciated every new pair of hands that came to work at the monastery, but with every pair of hands came a soul whose depths were unfathomable, and it was critical to not forget that. I like that deference before the mystery of other people. But on a practical level, yes, it can be frustrating to not get straight answers to questions.

Nunsense, I love your idea of a community taking an assessment. Of course it's not going to happen, and again there is the issue of there being so much more to the picture than what you can put down on paper, but all the same I recognised soooo much of what you wrote about communities being unwilling to ask themselves difficult questions. I think it can be easy to hide behind the entrant's vulnerability.

Francis Clare, I may try out the paper chain timeline just for fun!

[Benedictus]

nunsense -  agree with virtually everything you said I accept, as you do, though that it can be very difficult for a person exploring religious life to get a deep analysis of a community. It maybe easier, although not always, to get a good balance in this way with a settled community, such as a monastic one. I think you're right about how communities can see how the process works, and I can relate to this thinking back, in that if I didn't persist with them then it was because it was 'about me'.

I think I'm usually fairly empowered and able enough to try and balance out a power dynamic, but it was difficult in many situations when discerning. Some VD's made very sure they set boundaries about what I could ask or expect and they sometimes seemed to frown on me pushing into areas that you explore here. I guess they might have saw it as inappropriate or cheeky -  no idea, but I think it could have helped if they were more open.

In the end, I made my own evaluations from visiting regularly and often. I saw the problems and would ask subtle questions, simply as a way to see if my conclusions were roughly correct.  I couldn't have been too open about my insights without them being offended or closing the discernment down -  that was my view at the time anyway.

What I used to do was maintain the limits with the VD but see how much more I could get from members of the community, especially the retired members and those who held no position in particular within the community. I found they were more willing to not dress things up for me, and I think they wanted to give me a realistic insight. So I think it's good to mingle and talk often to members, not simply the superiors or VD's.

Even now, I find the retired and members not in positions of power will often offer me caution, advice and support that's really helpful. One bit of advice was to make sure I practised being docile - never have an opinion, view, perception or disagreement -  before taking final vows. This has much wisdom to it as formation periods, fairly long in my case, aren't always worked to the benefit of the candidate. I think, like the whole application process, there is a power imbalance issue that needs to be managed and tackled with tactical awareness.

 

[katherineH]

I can certainly relate to the desire to have all of the knowledge about the community up front.  I was very surprised to find out that many communities only provide Constitutions to sisters when they enter the novitiate.  It seems odd to me that someone discerning wouldn't be permitted to read them before applying to postulancy.  I read a vocation story from a Franciscan TOR sister who said that reading the Constitutions solidified her desire to enter that community.  I assumed all communities allowed this and felt very embarrassed when I asked a VD to read the Constitutions of her community and she told me I wasn't allowed.  My first reaction was "what are you trying to hide??" My spiritual director who is a sister told me that my reaction is a generational thing: people these days believe they can access everything at all times, whereas historically there has been a stronger desire to reveal information as needed and as a community sees fit.  I can see that side of the argument too.  

[AccountDeleted]

Spem, Benedictus, Marigold and KatherineH - thanks for the feedback. What you all have written is very interesting to me. I do believe that part of the problem is a generational attitude, part of it is a power imbalance (perhaps also a generational attitude) and part of it depends upon the community itself and what it allows as part of the introductory process.

I think in some cases, there is also the desperation that can accompany someone who doesn't quite fit all the criteria (e.g. age) so they don't have the same choices that someone else might have.  And when one is very limited in their choices, it's easy to settle for something that just isn't right. I suppose some communities do that as well - they want vocations so they might accept an applicant that they know isn't right for them. It reminds me of two unmarried people who are at an age when they feel desperate to get married so even though they know they aren't quite right for each other, they keep dating in the hope that something will change or they will be able to convince themselves that being married to the wrong person is better than not being married at all. In some cases, it just could work, but it takes an awful lot of effort from both parties. If only one is trying, then things are going to fall apart. 

As for not being able to read the Constitutions before entering - yes, I came across that as well and it struck me as quite odd. Someone who is going to devote their entire life to a community would find it much easier to make a decision based on such a document and it does seem rather one-sided that a community can ask for any information at all from a candidate but not be expected to provide full information about themselves to the candidate.

It might be interesting to hear from some of our religious on here about this practice, and whether their communities do it, and if so, why. I have never been a secretive person (although I am a very private one) so I find it difficult to understand secrecy unless there is a very good reason for it (like national defense or something else of such a serious nature). Benedictus, I was basically told the same thing about keeping my mouth shut and not asking too many questions or having opinions until after final vows. From this I started noticing a real change in sisters after final profession. It seems their health was perfect and they were completely docile until afterwards, when they knew they couldn't be asked to leave. Then, it seemed like all of a sudden, there were reasons why Sister X couldn't participate in some community activity or other, illness became more prevalent, and personalities changed. It was fascinating to watch but disconcerting to live with. I called it 'the black veil syndrome' because they got their black veil at final profession. 

I know this thread is about the application process for the discerner, so I won't go on anymore,  but it just made me think about it from the discerner's point of view as well, with regard to checking out the community. Thanks for all the input everyone.

Edited August 16, 2015 by nunsense

[katherineH]

I think this is the catch-22 with more traditional communities - there is the allure of the historicity, the habit, the rule, the legacy of the founder/foundress etc. but it also comes with practices that might be viewed as antiquated, notably a sense of exclusivity or elitism.  Another argument I've heard about not permitting postulants and discerners to read the constitutions is that it cheapens the constitutions which are regarded as the "heart" of the community.  Just as a person wouldn't fully reveal their heart on a second date with someone, so does a community seek to guard their heart.  I am like you nunsense, I value transparency so any form of secrecy raises suspicions for me.  I have had to work through that in my discernment and trust that God will reveal to me any behaviors in a community that might be unhealthy.  Joining any community requires so much trust in God, the superiors, and the other sisters.  

I second the desire for religious on the phorum to contribute to this topic! 

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

Spem, Benedictus, Marigold and KatherineH - thanks for the feedback. What you all have written is very interesting to me. I do believe that part of the problem is a generational attitude, part of it is a power imbalance (perhaps also a generational attitude) and part of it depends upon the community itself and what it allows as part of the introductory process.

I think in some cases, there is also the desperation that can accompany someone who doesn't quite fit all the criteria (e.g. age) so they don't have the same choices that someone else might have.  And when one is very limited in their choices, it's easy to settle for something that just isn't right. I suppose some communities do that as well - they want vocations so they might accept an applicant that they know isn't right for them. It reminds me of two unmarried people who are at an age when they feel desperate to get married so even though they know they aren't quite right for each other, they keep dating in the hope that something will change or they will be able to convince themselves that being married to the wrong person is better than not being married at all. In some cases, it just could work, but it takes an awful lot of effort from both parties. If only one is trying, then things are going to fall apart. 

As for not being able to read the Constitutions before entering - yes, I came across that as well and it struck me as quite odd. Someone who is going to devote their entire life to a community would find it much easier to make a decision based on such a document and it does seem rather one-sided that a community can ask for any information at all from a candidate but not be expected to provide full information about themselves to the candidate.

It might be interesting to hear from some of our religious on here about this practice, and whether their communities do it, and if so, why. I have never been a secretive person (although I am a very private one) so I find it difficult to understand secrecy unless there is a very good reason for it (like national defense or something else of such a serious nature). Benedictus, I was basically told the same thing about keeping my mouth shut and not asking too many questions or having opinions until after final vows. From this I started noticing a real change in sisters after final profession. It seems their health was perfect and they were completely docile until afterwards, when they knew they couldn't be asked to leave. Then, it seemed like all of a sudden, there were reasons why Sister X couldn't participate in some community activity or other, illness became more prevalent, and personalities changed. It was fascinating to watch but disconcerting to live with. I called it 'the black veil syndrome' because they got their black veil at final profession. 

I know this thread is about the application process for the discerner, so I won't go on anymore,  but it just made me think about it from the discerner's point of view as well, with regard to checking out the community. Thanks for all the input everyone.

I was surprised to hear that some Communities do not allow aspirants or postulants to read their Constitutions. Perhaps it is a generational thing, but I don't really think so, unless we are talking about generations who have already gone to their Heavenly Father. After all Nunsense, you and I would be considered by many on Phatmass to be the "older generation." I came of age in the era of Watergate and the resignation of President Nixon, so I have valued transparency all my adult life.

Also, when I was married in the Catholic Church (back when dinosaurs roamed the earth  ), we attended "Engaged Encounter" as part of our pre-cana preparation (Does EE even still exist?) An integral part of pre-cana preparation was emphasizing that couples need to be open and honest with each other, with no "secrets," and to discuss and work out problems and differences. I am a living example of how important transparency is in marriage. If I had known my ex-husband felt any attraction to other men, I would not have married him. (However, to give my ex-husband due credit, I'm not sure that he was fully aware of his feelings at that point, so wasn't being deliberately dishonest. Also, we married at a time when to be homosexual would have not only have badly hurt his personal and family relationships, but would also have almost certainly hurt his career prospects. Even more than nowadays, my ex-husband did not want to be homosexual.) So, I started out valuing transparency, and my life experiences have made this an even more important value for me.

I was surprised and saddened by your experiences of nuns/Religious Sisters not being truly "themselves" until after final vows. It reminded me of stories of how sometimes people change after marriage, which is difficult at best, and disastrous for the marriage at worst. I understand why people often do this at work, but for long term "family" relationships--whether in the monastery or in marriage--lack of honesty is not a good thing.

How can it be helpful not to be honest and upfront with aspirants (or at least postulants) from the very beginning, especially with something as integral as the Constitutions of the Community? After all, especially with postulants, the hope on both sides is that the postulant will remain with the Community for life. Joining a Community is not like taking a job, it's closer to marriage. Obviously postulants quit their jobs before joining, but many/most(?) postulants go much further and do things such as get rid of belongings, sell their cars, say good-bye to friends, etc.

I've been posting on VS for more than five years now, and I'm still learning new things!

[Sr Mary Catharine OP]

Well we must be odd because the 1st meeting with an aspirant (live-in) I go over the Constitutions, back history, way to read it, etc., Our house directory, our ratio formationis and our guidelines for postulants. And I hear myself talking for quite awhile trying to be as honest as I can. By the way there is this thing called "the Dominican secret" that I've heard of. I have no idea what that is all about. It's not from the friars or the nuns! Sure we do have secrets because we want to keep some things a surprise! For example...

Hah! Got ya! 

As for the questions nunsense posed I have been asked those and similar questions many times or I have brought them up myself. 

There is a point though that we ALL MUST ADMIT if we have entered religious life that we don't hear half of what the vocation directress is saying because we are hearing it with our own ideal of what religious life is. Sort of like when you go into a marriage. 

The other piece of the picture is that I don't know who began the idea that particularly women's monasteries were supposed to be perfect paragons of holiness! The monastery is the place of struggle for conversion and goes on one's whole life! There is a reason why we each ask for God's mercy and that of the community when we receive the habit and make profession!!! So, that implies weakness and the effects of original sin. So, the important this is how does a community live with its sinfulness! 

I think active and monastic and contemplative life approach the process of entering differently. In monastic life there is more of this sense of one needs to come in and test and be tested by the life. 

Does that help anyone?

[Spem in alium]

Great points, guys. Just as a marriage must be entered into freely and honestly, so too should acceptance of vocations into religious life. 

I was actually able to look through our Constitution before I applied. I can't remember if I asked to read it, or if Sister offered. But I do remember looking through. It is odd (at least to me) that an applicant would be prevented from reading the Constitutions. 

I agree with both nunsense and Iggy that honesty is so important. One thing that really drew me to my Congregation was how open the Sisters are.  The Vocations Director (now my director of formation) has always been honest with me about things, and my Superior too. Importantly, they don't pretend that nothing is wrong when it actually is. My director in particular has been very open and upfront with me, and while that sometimes is uncomfortable (especially when it involves criticism or recognition of my mistakes), it's so important. Their honesty helps me to grow, and it demonstrates to me that they actually care enough to be so open, especially when things are difficult - I'd be far more concerned and uncomfortable if they never gave me constructive criticism and never showed they were upset. They show me the reality of religious life, rather than struggle to maintain an ideal.

It would be good to hear from religious about these points.  

 

Edited August 16, 2015 by Spem in alium

[Egeria]

Marigold, I think the difference is partly a cultural one between East and West. Although one can state this too sharply and in a caricatured way (order vs chaos, rules vs Spirit, etc), there is a difference. Having said that, in my experience and those of others whom I know, not all western communities, and particularly monastic communities, are nearly as structured in their application process as some of what has been presented here. But I suspect that this is part of a broader trend towards "professionalization", which one also sees in things like spiritual direction that is rather alien to Orthodoxy.

I agree that Nunsense makes a good point, although what to do about it is another matter. Sometimes it takes years to realize things about a community - and our own situations and perceptions (and what we want to see) influence our ability to see clearly.

I'm also really surprised about not being allowed access to the constitutions. When I first started the very initial stages of investigating religious life a few decades ago, I remember being told very clearly by my spiritual director to ask to see the constitutions and to be wary of any community that would not show them to me.

[TheresaThoma]

As Sr Catharine pointed out 

Well we must be odd because the 1st meeting with an aspirant (live-in) I go over the Constitutions, back history, way to read it, etc., Our house directory, our ratio formationis and our guidelines for postulants. And I hear myself talking for quite awhile trying to be as honest as I can. By the way there is this thing called "the Dominican secret" that I've heard of. I have no idea what that is all about. It's not from the friars or the nuns! Sure we do have secrets because we want to keep some things a surprise!

I think active and monastic and contemplative life approach the process of entering differently. In monastic life there is more of this sense of one needs to come in and test and be tested by the life. 
 

This is pretty similar to what I have experienced thus far with the community I am discerning with. It was only after my 8 day Come and See and when I had indicated I wanted to continue discerning and go further that the Sisters started sharing some of the Community's documents with me. On one visit they gave me the a whole document to read and had me focus on a couple of sections. Then Sister and I talked about it. It was good for both of us to see what specifically attracted me.

One of the best pieces of advice I was given by a brother of the community when I asked him to tell me about the community was "You have to come, stay and experience it".   There have been certain boundaries (ie when I visit I don't attend all of the postulant's classes) but it makes sense I'm not (God Willing, yet) a member of the community.

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

Well we must be odd because the 1st meeting with an aspirant (live-in) I go over the Constitutions, back history, way to read it, etc., Our house directory, our ratio formationis and our guidelines for postulants. And I hear myself talking for quite awhile trying to be as honest as I can. By the way there is this thing called "the Dominican secret" that I've heard of. I have no idea what that is all about. It's not from the friars or the nuns! Sure we do have secrets because we want to keep some things a surprise! For example...

Hah! Got ya! 

As for the questions nunsense posed I have been asked those and similar questions many times or I have brought them up myself. 

There is a point though that we ALL MUST ADMIT if we have entered religious life that we don't hear half of what the vocation directress is saying because we are hearing it with our own ideal of what religious life is. Sort of like when you go into a marriage. 

The other piece of the picture is that I don't know who began the idea that particularly women's monasteries were supposed to be perfect paragons of holiness! The monastery is the place of struggle for conversion and goes on one's whole life! There is a reason why we each ask for God's mercy and that of the community when we receive the habit and make profession!!! So, that implies weakness and the effects of original sin. So, the important this is how does a community live with its sinfulness! 

I think active and monastic and contemplative life approach the process of entering differently. In monastic life there is more of this sense of one needs to come in and test and be tested by the life. 

Does that help anyone?

Thanks for this. I'm not surprised at that your Community is open with serious aspirants about fundamentals like the Community's constitutions. 

FYI--To clarify the comparisons I've made between marriage and religious life--I'm not saying it's a perfect comparison. It breaks down at some point. A postulant does need a certain amount of basic information, because she is normally making some commitments when she joins a Community. But, the comparison there is more like getting engaged than getting married. In both cases, it's a trial period that both sides hope will be permanent, but is also the best time to test the relationship to be as sure as possible that the relationship is the right one. Marriage is closer (but obviously still not identical) to taking final vows, when both the Sister and the Community have had enough time of testing to feel led to make a lifetime commitment.

[emma8201986]

These are all very interesting comments.  One thing I like about the community I will shortly be entering is that they have a pre-postulancy.  Frankly, I don't know why they don't just call it an aspirancy - but anyway, we wear our own clothes and live in the community with no commitments on either side.  In December, if I am acceptable to the community and I want to enter, I will begin postulancy.   I think over 3 months of getting to know the community will be very helpful.