Masculine spirituality

[MarysLittleFlower]

The idea of crusading orders and missionary priests I would consider "feminine" in the sense that they are romantic, yearnings of the heart to be unique and great. Maybe more reflective of little boys than men. A more practical monastic spirituality seems most "masculine," giving men a sort of arena in which to act in daily life rather than giving them romantic fantasies. But everyone's different...I like Jesuits because of the intellectual side and the emphasis on discernment, which reminds me of ancient philosophy as a way of life, constantly thinking, but a lot of men aren't intellectual and would not respond to that.

i wouldn't see a missionary priest like St Louis De Montfort as feminine...it also takes very masculine traits to do something like this or to be a crusader.  I think in another discussion it was mentioned that a man having some feminine traits isn't the same as a man who is emasculated. Even Our Lord can be very gentle for instance yet totally masculine. I don't think men need to search for THE most masculine traits ONLY - rather just have strong masculine traits always present. Just like how a woman might be brave and resolute but having strong feminine traits would still make her distinctly feminine. Its not mixing the genders, I actually believe in gender roles etc, I mean I don't think its divided so neatly. there are traits all good men have that have traditionally been seen as feminine, but they are not emasculated men at all. 

Edited August 12, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower

[PhuturePriest]

Does Thomas Merton count as "masculine"? He's very direct, and has written some on the Desert Fathers, who really weren't "feminine" in any sense. I'm not entirely sure what would count as "masculine" spirituality, unless you just mean more hard-core corporal penances and stuff...?

I'm female and don't relate to spousal imagery at all. I don't think the heavily emotive, sappy kind of stuff one runs into in... ahem... people like St. Therese of Lisieux... is really "feminine" so much as it is the product of a certain era in history.

I find Saint Therese's spirituality is very beautiful. It's not a matter of historical context, but a matter of personality. Some people are more attracted to Saint Nicholas punching Arius in the face, and others are more attracted to Saint Therese and Saint John of the Cross with all their sap and romance. There's nothing inherently wrong in either one.

[Era Might]

i wouldn't see a missionary priest like St Louis De Montfort as feminine...it also takes very masculine traits to do something like this or to be a crusader.  I think in another discussion it was mentioned that a man having some feminine traits isn't the same as a man who is emasculated. Even Our Lord can be very gentle for instance yet totally masculine. I don't think men need to search for THE most masculine traits ONLY - rather just have strong masculine traits always present. Just like how a woman might be brave and resolute but having strong feminine traits would still make her distinctly feminine. Its not mixing the genders, I actually believe in gender roles etc, I mean I don't think its divided so neatly. there are traits all good men have that have traditionally been seen as feminine, but they are not emasculated men at all. 

I don't mean that being a missionary priest is femine, but that the fantasy of it is. A missionary priest goes where he is sent and lives an actual daily life...that's different from the romantic fantasy of being a missionary. Same with the crusaser fantasy...the reality of a crusader is plunging your sword in a Muslim's neck and watching him die in a pool of his own blood. The romantic fantasy of soldiering is for little boys who know nothing of real life, until they grow up and discover the reality of war. They need a spirituality to keep them human in the midst of this world, not a spirituality that inflames them to fantasies that are not real. St. Peter drew his sword to slice off Malchus' ear, and Christ gave him a real spiritual lesson...he told him to put his sword away. That's when St. Peter really became a man.

[NadaTeTurbe]

Saint Benedict. When I want for the first time in a retreat in a benedictine monastery (for male), I really felt... "real man". I mean, not real man in the "macho parody", as said Catlip, but in the sense of quiet man, who know who they are and where they go, who are detached from the prejudice of the world, and who have a real strenght. 

Little story : one of the monk gave us his testimony. He wanted to be a monk, but his father, a violent man, was against it - it was too womanly. The monk found the strenght to follow his vocation while praying... St Joan of Arc ! He thought that if St Joan had the courage to fight the spirit of this time about " a woman should not fight", so he could have the courage to fight his father opposition. 

[bardegaulois]

The idea of crusading orders and missionary priests I would consider "feminine" in the sense that they are romantic, yearnings of the heart to be unique and great. Maybe more reflective of little boys than men. A more practical monastic spirituality seems most "masculine," giving men a sort of arena in which to act in daily life rather than giving them romantic fantasies. But everyone's different...I like Jesuits because of the intellectual side and the emphasis on discernment, which reminds me of ancient philosophy as a way of life, constantly thinking, but a lot of men aren't intellectual and would not respond to that.

This is exactly the idea that I'm talking about: not fantasy and romance, but merely the understanding of what needs to be done, and doing it. I've had a lot of friends who've served in the US military, and they've described their lives as endless routine, monotony, and drill, very far from the way a boy playing soldier might think of it. It's at times very trying, but they say they wind up fulfilling their orders for the sake of their comrades, because they know their orders are not merely for the sake of busy work but because the unit will be weaker if they're not fulfilled. In this me-generation era when everyone is a special little snowflake, That sort of practical selflessness is something that is hardly inculcated enough.

That said, though, I'm with you on the Jesuits, for the intellectual life takes labour of a different sort, one that if not fully grounded can lead to some frankly crazy ideas. Seriously, look at the intellectual detritus of late modernity and the patent absurdities being taught as gospel in so many of our universities. Unmoored, we can easily drift away. Thus, we must take caution to discern our orders very carefully, and Ignatius gives us a very pragmatic way to do that, not based merely on desire, but on hard realism as well. One who undertakes such a spiritual practice as the Exercises or a closer following of the Rule of St Benedict should soon find himself not only more in touch with the fallenness of his human estate, but also with the intellectual aloofness to discern what his orders are best to overcome that fallenness by bringing the Kingdom of God ever further into the world.

[beatitude]

I don't mean that being a missionary priest is femine, but that the fantasy of it is. A missionary priest goes where he is sent and lives an actual daily life...that's different from the romantic fantasy of being a missionary. Same with the crusaser fantasy...the reality of a crusader is plunging your sword in a Muslim's neck and watching him die in a pool of his own blood. The romantic fantasy of soldiering is for little boys who know nothing of real life, until they grow up and discover the reality of war. They need a spirituality to keep them human in the midst of this world, not a spirituality that inflames them to fantasies that are not real. St. Peter drew his sword to slice off Malchus' ear, and Christ gave him a real spiritual lesson...he told him to put his sword away. That's when St. Peter really became a man.

This is why I don't try and divide spirituality into 'masculine' and 'feminine' - we end up with sexism like this. Era, do you even see what you're saying? You are classifying feminine spirituality as "something for little boys who know nothing of real life", who need something that will enable them to "really become a man" instead of "inflaming them to fantasies that are not real". So in your eyes, feminine spirituality = unrealistic dangerous daydreams. Masculine spirituality = the words of Jesus himself.

This is what happens when we impose cultural ideas of masculinity and femininity onto the Gospels. Women end up getting degraded. I want a spirituality that's Catholic Christian and that's enough for me.

[Era Might]

This is why I don't try and divide spirituality into 'masculine' and 'feminine' - we end up with sexism like this. Era, do you even see what you're saying? You are classifying feminine spirituality as "something for little boys who know nothing of real life", who need something that will enable them to "really become a man" instead of "inflaming them to fantasies that are not real". So in your eyes, feminine spirituality = unrealistic dangerous daydreams. Masculine spirituality = the words of Jesus himself.

This is what happens when we impose cultural ideas of masculinity and femininity onto the Gospels. Women end up getting degraded. I want a spirituality that's Catholic Christian and that's enough for me.

I consider romanticism feminine, and that's not entirely a bad thing. Generally speaking, women live in fantasies, which men are adept at exploiting. When men become too fantastical, they lose the cultural grounding of masculinity. That's something that introverts and contemplatives have to deal with, because they live strongly by feeling. I think there is a masculine and feminine side to every soul, but when talking about surface level masculinity, fantasizing is not a positive. Men are expected to put their heads down and be practical. But I'm prejudiced because I am thinking through the lens of traditional culture where women are not just abstract members of the economy but truly gendered mothers and wives. I'm not a huge fan of modern abolition of gender so I admit I may be "sexist" by those standards. Today men and women are economic partners wheras traditionally the man is the provider and the woman the nurturer. That's a large topic for another thread.

Edited August 13, 2015 by Era Might

[MarysLittleFlower]

I believe there are differences between men and women and masculinity and femininity but I wouldn't say that femininity is about fantasies .. Why can't the interior contemplative world be real? Our Lady is perfectly feminine... Did she live in a fantasy world? Not at all... I think there are differences just different ones.

I don't believe in abolition of gender either but my view of femininity is different. 

[Era Might]

I believe there are differences between men and women and masculinity and femininity but I wouldn't say that femininity is about fantasies .. Why can't the interior contemplative world be real? Our Lady is perfectly feminine... Did she live in a fantasy world? Not at all... I think there are differences just different ones.

I don't believe in abolition of gender either but my view of femininity is different. 

Mary is a good example, she believed the angel whereas Joseph, initially, was practical: he wanted to put her away quietly. Same with Elizabeth and Zachariah, he lost his speech because he didn't believe the angel. Fantasy is not all there is to femininity, but women generally are believing romantics, they want to be swept off their feet...and often end up heartbroken when they believe in the wrong person.

Edited August 13, 2015 by Era Might

[beatitude]

Mary's initial response to the angel was, "How can this be, since I am a virgin?" I don't know how much more practical you can get. Ultimately she believed in the angel's message because she had perfect trust in God, not because she was predisposed to live in fantasy land by her XX chromosomes.

Joseph did not immediately know what was going on because unlike Mary he had had no angelic vision, only the news that Mary was pregnant. Once the angel appeared to him in a dream, he was no longer afraid and understood immediately what he had to do. He woke up and acted faithfully on a dream. That doesn't say much for this theory either.

Zechariah lost his speech because he was arrogant, not because he was practical. Sarah had a similar reaction to the angel's news of her pregnancy, so it's difficult to see this scepticism as a man's trait. Zechariah was a priest, occupying a very prestigious social position, and he was used to being the one who decided how everything should go. God silenced him so that he could finally learn to listen as well as to talk. Elizabeth carried the painful stigma of a barren woman (a 'real' experience devastating enough to shatter a thousand fantasies, especially in that culture) and consequently she did not have as much pride to get over. There was no pride compromising her ability to listen.

Contemplative nuns and monks do not live primarily by feelings. This is a myth that they work very hard to dispel.

Neither your theory nor your evidence for it has any logical basis. You seem to be trying to disguise the lack of substance by using sociological phrases that don't even make sense in this context. I don't think anyone is just an "abstract member of the economy", and whether or not someone is a mother or a wife is irrelevant to your ideas on gender - I'm not sure what a "truly gendered mother" is supposed to be, one that has a pram in the exact shade of pink as her uterus? You also have to ignore most men's experiences if you are going to paint heartbreak and loss of a dream as a female preserve. You could say that they are 'feminine' traits present in both sexes, but that's just an arbitrary classification, especially as ideas of what's feminine and what's masculine have changed over time and from place to place. I could say that such traits are the result of our previous incarnations as kangaroos with about as much chance of proving it.

[marigold]

Out of props but thumbs up to what ‌@‌beatitude said.

[Catlick]

Generally speaking, women live in fantasies, which men are adept at exploiting. When men become too fantastical, they lose the cultural grounding of masculinity. That's something that introverts and contemplatives have to deal with, because they live strongly by feeling.

Introverts live strongly by feeling? LOL.

You speak of fantasy, which is unrestrained imagination. Unrestrained - this is why the 'fantasy' genre in popular culture is prone to all kinds of sinister dreams and desires. 

Tradition (not Tradition-with-a-T per se, but pre-19th c. thought as a whole) regards such dreams and desires as disordered, and therefore prefers to speak of imagination. 

I wouldn't classify women as being more 'believing romantics' than men. People who go to the extreme to realize a dream (capturing someone's heart, finding the Holy Grail, migrating to the desert to find God) are more often men. Women possess to much common sense for such things. 

Edited August 13, 2015 by Catlick

[marigold]

Introverts live strongly by feeling? LOL.

You speak of fantasy, which is unrestrained imagination. Unrestrained - this is why the 'fantasy' genre in popular culture is prone to all kinds of sinister dreams and desires. 

Tradition (not Tradition-with-a-T per se, but pre-19th c. thought as a whole) regards such dreams and desires as disordered, and therefore prefers to speak of imagination. 

I wouldn't classify women as being more 'believing romantics' than men. People who go to the extreme to realize a dream (capturing someone's heart, finding the Holy Grail, migrating to the desert to find God) are more often men. Women possess to much common sense for such things. 

I never thought I'd say it, Catlick, but I agree with you.

[Lilllabettt]

Mary's initial response to the angel was, "How can this be, since I am a virgin?" I don't know how much more practical you can get. Ultimately she believed in the angel's message because she had perfect trust in God, not because she was predisposed to live in fantasy land by her XX chromosomes.

Contemplative nuns and monks do not live primarily by feelings. This is a myth that they work very hard to dispel.

I don't think anyone is just an "abstract member of the economy", and whether or not someone is a mother or a wife is irrelevant to your ideas on gender - I'm not sure what a "truly gendered mother" is supposed to be, one that has a pram in the exact shade of pink as her uterus? You also have to ignore most men's experiences if you are going to paint heartbreak and loss of a dream as a female preserve. You could say that they are 'feminine' traits present in both sexes, but that's just an arbitrary classification, especially as ideas of what's feminine and what's masculine have changed over time and from place to place. I could say that such traits are the result of our previous incarnations as kangaroos with about as much chance of proving it.

Mary's response is more properly  translated "How shall this come to pass?" i.e.,  "What magic will be used to make this happen?"  The question is not sarcastic, it is in earnest. It has the quality of openness, not doubt. Mary believes God can and will make her a mother, even though she is a consecrated virgin. She is ready to believe.   

People have noticed that women are more ready to believe. Of course this must therefore be a negative thing. Anything that is pronounced in women - especially pregnancy and birth - is devalued. Men cannot do most reproductive work, therefore it is worthless. Women are more ready to believe than men, therefore that quality is equivalent with gullibility and an unwholesome desire to live in a fantasy land. 

Sex distinction is undeniable - even plants have male and female. But gender is something proper only to humanity. Its existence reflects the truth that complementary of the sexes is far deeper and more profound than how they fit together anatomically. 

Capitalism, naturally, has no use for gender. It would prefer the efficiency of uniformly androgynous "human" resources. In practice this has meant a campaign to strip women of gender identity and encourage them to pattern themselves after the male model - wonderfully free from any messy, overhead-sapping activities: Pregnancy, childbirth, nurturing of children; Reasoning through dilemmas by factoring in relationships rather than exclusive reliance on abstract logic, etc.  It is not an accident that the rise of industrial production has coincided with human rejection of belief in religion, magic, etc. and the proclamation that gender is dead. After all these things are not "productive."

I say a human being stripped of its gender is no longer fully human. It is a cog - albeit a productive cog - in an economic machine.

“Every person deserves the chance to live a healthy, productive life.”  - motto of the Gates Foundation. "Productivity"  ( i.e., integration with androgynous values of capitalism, especially of traditional, highly gendered societies.)

 

 

[MarysLittleFlower]

I think that St Joseph does show faith because his initial worry came from feeling unworthy to be Our Lady's husband and not having an explanation, but when he was told, he believed. For this reason I'd agree more with Beatitudes analysis of the persons in the Bible. Our Lady also believed because of her holiness.

However, I also notice how the women in the Bible stayed with Our Lord at the Crucifixion and only one man did, St John. So I think it makes sense to say that women believe more easily. BUT... why should this be a negative thing? This is a trait that Our Lord seems to love. Men can have it too obviously. I think I'd agree with Lilllabettt's thoughts here on gender. 

I think that St Joseph does show faith because his initial worry came from feeling unworthy to be Our Lady's husband and not having an explanation, but when he was told, he believed. For this reason I'd agree more with Beatitudes analysis of the persons in the Bible. Our Lady also believed because of her holiness.

However, I also notice how the women in the Bible stayed with Our Lord at the Crucifixion and only one man did, St John. So I think it makes sense to say that women believe more easily. BUT... why should this be a negative thing? This is a trait that Our Lord seems to love. Men can have it too obviously. I think I'd agree with Lilllabettt's thoughts here on gender.