Blessed Elena Aiello

[MarysLittleFlower]

I just wanted to share about this Blessed an extraordinary soul and life but also a holy example and friend to anyone who might not be able to be a nun because of an illness.http://www.mysticsofthechurch.com/2011/09/blessed-elena-aiello-mystic-stigmatic.html?m=1

 

Edited August 6, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower

[MarysLittleFlower]

 I also read amazing stories of two holy women who lived in the world. Again not ordinary lives but it shows someone could have a vocation in the world and reach sainthood - with or without such manifestations since holiness is found in fidelity to God's Will and heroic virtue. 

http://www.mysticsofthechurch.com/2015/03/luigina-sinapi-italian-mystic.html?m=1

http://www.mysticsofthechurch.com/2015/01/maria-teresa-carloni-modern-day-mystic.html?m=1

 

[BarbTherese]

Thank you for sharing these mystics, MLF - our venerables, blesseds and saints are always an encouragement along the way.  Their lives can encourage, inform and enlighten.  Such lives can even be supportive where Faith might be weak.

  The Church has always taught that one can aspire to holiness/sainthood in the lay state of life.  Laity and holiness existed before the foundation of the various forms of consecrated life in The Church and the formation of consecrated life was not a cancellation of the lay state, rather an isolation of certain forms of lay living into a formal way of life in The Church.  The laity itself in secular life remains a formal way of living and a potential road to holiness in The Church as always.  This teaching has been strengthened and highlighted through VII.

http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius12/P12LAYAP.HTM "There has always been a lay apostolate in Christ's Church. Saints such as Emperor Henry III, Stephen, founder of Catholic Hungary, and Louis IX of France were lay apostles, though this was not consciously realized at first, and the phrase "lay apostle" did not exist. There were also women, like St. Pulcheria, sister of Emperor Theodore II, and Mary Ward, who were lay apostles.

There is a lively awareness of the lay apostolate today. and "lay apostle" is one of the terms most widely used in discussing the activities of the Church. This is because the cooperation of the laity with the Hierarchy has never been so necessary or practiced so systematically as today.

This cooperation assumes a thousand different forms, from the silent sacrifice offered for the salvation of souls, to the kind word and good example which compel the admiration even of the Church's foes. It also embraces those activities of the Hierarchy which can be shared with the ordinary layman, and feats of bravery which are paid for with one's life, which appear among no statistics, and are known only to God. This hidden apostolate is perhaps the most precious and fruitful of all."

Formal consecrated life in The Church probably began around the sixth century or so I think.

[Graciela]

Thank you for this, Barbara Therese.  I was recently reading something on a community's website, perhaps the Children of Mary, that was holding out vowed religious life as "higher" than the lay state. I find such attitudes distasteful and potentially discouraging to those who may be called to married life, or secular institute membership, or private vows in the lay life. 

 

[BarbTherese]

Thank you, Graciela.  I have seen similar statements on vocation type websites.  It is very sad indeed and a point of much discouragement and sadness for many who strive to love and serve The Lord with their all -  but for some reason unable to enter religious life as the state of perfection and as the only state of perfection in The Church (but herein comes along the misunderstandings since a state of perfection is attainable in all the vocations).

I do think personally that the consecrated state is just a different state of life in The Church, while religious life with vows of poverty, chastity and obedience is the state of perfection.  It is not generally understood, I don't think, that one can be fully living in a state of perfection outside of religious life - and in any vocation whatsoever.  Certainly, I do think that celibacy "for the sake of The Kingdom" is a higher state of life than the non-celibate.  But this is a theological objective understanding.  Where the personal is concerned, the subjective comes into the picture and nothing as an objective consideration can transcend God's Will for a person's life, not even celibacy since The Will of God is higher than celibacy.  I think the distinction between the objective understanding and the subjective embracing is not generally grasped and understood - and matters may be even trickier and more complex than I have presented them.  What I have presented here is sufficient for my understanding unless and until further information comes along that I can grasp and understand meaningfully.

Others may be able to contribute more meaningfully and clearer.

An interesting, if lengthy, read : http://cdn.theologicalstudies.net/68/68.2/68.2.5.pdf  It is a reflection on the lay state of life as the single state non vowed.

E&OE

 

 

Edited August 7, 2015 by BarbaraTherese

[MarysLittleFlower]

Thanks for responding! I agree that we are all called to be Saints. It is true though that consecrated life is an objectively higher state in Church teachings. quotes here  http://www.religious-vocation.com

However, this doesn't mean that others can't reach the holiness they are meant for. And certain lay people in the world may even be holier than certain religious. But as a state it is higher in how it mirrors Christ's life and Heavenly life.

I believe though that we should seek a vocation that God meant for us, and our own particular perfection is His Will for us for example if a person is called to marriage they wouldn't be suited to a religious order even though its a higher state.

Our own perfection is based rather on His Will and that is what we should seek. Neither of course should we look down on other vocations! All vocations are holy just some are higher states.

Our Lord also told the Saints that someone who is consecrated to Him for example has a special glory in Heaven, but this is due to their generosity in giving Him their liberty .. But again we should seek only His Will and out of love not just for a reward  I say all this to clarify Church teaching not to put myself on a pedestal because I'm not a religious or consecrated myself. I don't think there's any pride in the teaching.

The approach only becomes prideful from concupiscence in hearts but it can insteas be humble gratitude its also not about seeking something out of pride, as we should seek God's Will, and its not about seeing yourself as worthy.. That's how I came to understand it and just wanted to share! 

 

Even if there's a hierarchy in the various states regarding their objective perfection (our faith is more hierarchical than democratic), - that's not something to be discouraged about because each soul is special to God and their mission can't be repeated. And we can put all pride aside because someone will always be higher than us, and even if we're highest of all, we're still not like Our Lady, and even with Our Lady, she is very humble because God is greatest. So we can just have humility before Him. He said - become like little children, and who humbles himself the most will be the greatest in Heaven. But this doesn't mean we can't state Church teaching on the states themselves  

So I wouldn't want anyone to get discouraged by this but if we are discouraged perhaps its our pride in wanting to be greater, and I speak of myself too! Better to just accept the place for us given by God, as He have it with much love, and He looks at each person as an individual who is unique. He can tell each apart from all the others. So no fear about that we can choose something simply because its God's Will, not being worried that its not the highest state of all. We can just seek to love God. If He does can to consecrated life then we can just be grateful and if not we can be grateful that His Will is done  

[Nunsuch]

This blog posting by a young sister appeared in my email this morning, and I thought it was interesting, in light of the discussions of whether or not there is a "hierarchy" of states of grace:

http://globalsistersreport.org/column/horizons/ordinary-lights-28746

 

[MarysLittleFlower]

If I was a Sister I hope I wouldn't want to be put on a pedestal. I believe religious life involves living the hidden life of Nazareth. However as I studied what religious life is I did come to the conclusion that its something rather sublime.

It doesn't mean I would be 'sublime' as a Sister - that word isn't ever about oneself but something other than oneself. Our mission as Baptized people is also 'sublime', it is too great for us - look we can receive God Himself into ourselves and be His temples! Being set apart for Him - consecrated - is something great and I don't think its prideful to think that...

Because it can actually humble a person to consider how THEY - a little sinful human being - can be called to something like that. I believe in lowering ourselves but not in lowering God's gifts or vocation. I'm not saying the Sister here is doing that... But just something I thought .. Isn't Heaven really greater than anything?

We need not make it sound ordinary for humility sake. Humility is recognising we are unworthy of something so great. If we don't see it that way we wouldn't have that far to lower themselves. When I consider religious life or consecrated life in general it does 'awe' me at times because of what it is. It is actually humbling to discern it while knowing my sins and frailty.

If I would be a nun I can - and should - see myself as ordinary. But the vocation... It is much higher than any of us. Probably every vocation is. But this one more closely mirrors Christ's own life. That is not small - rather we are small and unworthy. 

Edited August 7, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower

[MarysLittleFlower]

I think I found the page you referred to Graciela... http://www.childrenofmary.net/vocations.shtml

The way they explained it made sense to me though I think it needs to be remembered that each vocation is beautiful so no one gets discouraged  I did agree with their article though. They were talking about consecrated life of celibacy and marriage .. But later spoke specifically of religious life as a form of consecrated life. Even though people with private vows and others don't make public vows or receive a consecration, their vocation is still a life of celibacy given to Christ... Maybe some forms of this life are more official or more 'perfect' as they mirror heavenly life, but I believe when a soul gives their chastity to Christ that is a very beautiful thing and they begin to live Him in a more exclusive way. as for marriage, it is also a holy vocation but as the article says there are differences. . yet married people are called to be Saints and we have some great ones!

[BarbTherese]

As a comment: Celibate Chastity is beautiful (all vocations are called to chastity but not necessarily celibate chastity) and as St Paul states along with many other sources, celibacy is the better way where ideally one's sole focus will be Christ - but we need to be careful I think not to be patronizing of other vocations in life where God's Will has indicated a call in another direction other than celibate chastity and religious life or consecrated life.  This would be to patronize God's Will.   Nothing is greater than The Will of God and His Ways are often most mysterious to us and to embrace His Will (ideally with detachment) transcends all other ways and is the path to sanctity.

One could enter religious life and never arrive even remotely close to holiness and one could marry and be truly holy and close to God - and if there is personal glory revealed in Heaven the latter would shine the greater.

Matthew Chapter 12

[46] As he was yet speaking to the multitudes, behold his mother and his brethren stood without, seeking to speak to him. [47] And one said unto him: Behold thy mother and thy brethren stand without, seeking thee. [48] But he answering him that told him, said: Who is my mother, and who are my brethren? [49] And stretching forth his hand towards his disciples, he said: Behold my mother and my brethren. [50] For whosoever shall do the will of my Father, that is in heaven, he is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Edited August 8, 2015 by BarbaraTherese

[MarysLittleFlower]

The way I see it celibacy is greater BUT the persons own holiness is found only in God's Will and all vocations come from His Will. 

[AccountDeleted]

If everyone were celibate then there wouldn't be many human beings being fruitful and multiplying after awhile!  

[BarbTherese]

Agree.  In theological objective considerations, celibacy is the greater of the vocations.

The way I see it celibacy is greater BUT the persons own holiness is found only in God's Will and all vocations come from His Will. 

Speaking on an objective theological level, celibacy is the greater, while God's Will (also and even on an objective theological level) is the greatest and from which all vocations flow including personal holiness.  When we begin to speak of individual vocations, then it is God's Will for a person's life which is  ideally being discerned.

Where people can get mixed up is in not understanding the real difference between theological objective considerations and the personal subjective element.  Where discouragement possibly might come in is where the superior nature of God's Will is not grasped and above all other considerations with no exceptions.  This is not stressed, to my mind, often enough - especially today where our vocations are so desperately needed and some websites 'advertisements' often seems to consider the superiority of celibacy and religious life might be the best drawcard.  I absolutely doubt this totally and for obvious reasons.

If everyone were celibate then there wouldn't be many human beings being fruitful and multiplying after awhile!  

Absolutely agree!  If everyone were celibate then The Church Herself would be looking at Her use by date  and at Her end - and impossible, we know.  Also mankind itself would be heading for extinction.   The majority of Catholics, for example, we know will be called by God's Will to marriage and a Holy and Sacred call and vocation.............all emphasised in V2.

I'm getting the guilts  - if this continues to be debated, best transferred to another forum.

[AccountDeleted]

Agree.  In theological objective considerations, celibacy is the greater of the vocations.

Speaking on an objective theological level, celibacy is the greater, while God's Will (also and even on an objective theological level) is the greatest and from which all vocations flow including personal holiness.  When we begin to speak of individual vocations, then it is God's Will for a person's life which is  ideally being discerned.

Where people can get mixed up is in not understanding the real difference between theological objective considerations and the personal subjective element.  Where discouragement possibly might come in is where the superior nature of God's Will is not grasped and above all other considerations with no exceptions.  This is not stressed, to my mind, often enough - especially today where our vocations are so desperately needed and some websites 'advertisements' often seems to consider the superiority of celibacy and religious life might be the best drawcard.  I absolutely doubt this totally and for obvious reasons.

Absolutely agree!  If everyone were celibate then The Church Herself would be looking at Her use by date  and at Her end - and impossible, we know.  Also mankind itself would be heading for extinction.   The majority of Catholics, for example, we know will be called by God's Will to marriage and a Holy and Sacred call and vocation.............all emphasised in V2.

I'm getting the guilts  - if this continues to be debated, best transferred to another forum.

Barb - I don't see that this has turned into a debate, has it? We are just sharing ideas about the concept.

[BarbTherese]

Barb - I don't see that this has turned into a debate, has it? We are just sharing ideas about the concept.

Thanks nunsense.  I will abide by your assessment very happily   I freely admit that I have never really understood the difference between a robust discussion of a subject and debating.