Churchly Humility

[marigold]

Yeah I was pretty much doing that kid thing of pointing to something they like and starting a conversation about it. 'Hey this is my pet stone. Look at it'. There wasn't really any nuanced motive behind it other than sharing something I had read today.

For what it's worth though, I think Egeria and MLF got closest to what Fr. Stephen himself was aiming at. I want unity as well, and I think a lot about how that is going to happen, but as far as I can see, both sides have their hobby horses that they aren't willing to let go of to let the real conversation proceed.

[MarysLittleFlower]

I tend to believe eventually there would be unity but it would be some supernatural action from God... because of course neither side wants to change their doctrines and someone would have to, since in the differing doctrines there's a truth and an error. (We all know who believes what but we can't convince simply through words )

But the other side would need to be receptive and be willing to accommodate any non doctrinal differences. Both would need to demonstrate forgiveness for centuries of fighting and any historical issues. Both would need extraordinary humility and much grace. Perhaps Saints would be raised up to help with this through example and prayer/sacrifice but I believe it would be a supernatural act with human cooperation  

Edited August 5, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower

[MarysLittleFlower]

I am wondering also what would help to work towards unity. For example since Catholics believe in the Papacy being divinely instituted, we can't say it doesn't matter in dialogue with the Orthodox - and if the Orthodox believe in their position being how Christ made the Church, they wouldnt just let it go either. I understand that because unity should not be at cost to doctrine. Of course as a Catholic I believe in the Papacy. Yet maybe the two sides can be accommodating in non doctrinal ways by wanting to work towards reunification. It doesn't help for example when Catholics and Orthodox have petty fights or anger at each other, and I've heard things in the past that made me sad. We can start with basic charity and praying for God to bring full unity  

[MarysLittleFlower]

I wonder if you all have heard of Myrna Nazzour. She's a Catholic woman in Damascus. She has the stigmata and theres a miraculous icon that exudes oil. She received messages from Jesus and Mary and I believe she has approval from her Bishop. She is married to an Eastern Orthodox man. Many messages she received are linked to seeking unity between Catholics and Orthodox. Here is part of one: 

"The Church that Jesus adopted is One Church, because Jesus is One. 
The Church is the kingdom of Heaven on earth. 
He who has divided it has sinned. 
And he who has rejoiced from its division has also sinned. 
Jesus built it. 
It was small. 
And when it grew, it became divided. 
He who divided it has no love in him. 
Gather! 
I tell you: "Pray, pray, and pray again!" 
How beautiful are My children when they kneel down, imploring. 
Do not fear, I am with you. "

The rest: http://www.soufanieh.com/ENGLISH/eemess.htm

 

There are videos about her that have the Imprimatur and it seems the messages have received a Nihil Obstat. I'm unsure what the Orthodox position is.  http://www.catholicdigitalstudio.com/miracleofdamascus.htm

 

[marigold]

Thanks for sharing that, MLF. I hadn't heard of her, but certainly the little snippet you posted is nice

Something that both Catholics and Orthodox forget is that the Orthodox actually have no problem with papal primacy. It's papal supremacy which we consider a distortion. The bishop of Rome was and should be 'primus inter pares', first among equals. Neither part of that equation can be done away with.

[MarysLittleFlower]

I realise that it does seem to be that Papal supremacy is the way that Catholics believe that Papal primacy is put into practice, and I understand it as being part of the doctrine same with infallibility of the Pope. Since we believe dogmas are infallible too, this dogma or any is not seen as optional by Catholics. For example the Eastern Catholics when they joined accepted the dogmas though they have their Church leaders still and all their traditions 

I do believe one day there would be full union but as a miracle of grace - so probably prayer is more effective than anything 

[Catlick]

The Catholic enthusiasm about union with the Orthodox 'Church' is misplaced. In the Orthodox anarchy there are madmen running around, claiming that in purgatory Satan can drag your soul to hell (Seraphim Rose) and that God might empty Hell (Metropolitan Hilary). The relative orthodoxy of Orthodox parishes has a lot to do with ethnicity, e.g. the Russian Orthodox were closed from lots of 1960s nonsense due to the Soviet Union. It's basically the tribe at prayer. In a place like New York City, more cosmopolitan than the average Russian village, an 'Orthodox' gay marriage 'officiated' by a priest has already taken place. 

Yes, the Orthodox have validly ordained priests. Yes, the Orthodox have valid Sacraments. But no, they are not 'Christians perfectly loyal to Tradition save for papal infallibility'. 

[beatitude]

Jesus prayed that we might be one as he and the Father are one. Enthusiasm for Christian unity is never misplaced.

Recently I encountered a Catholic priest who left the Church to get married, and who now co-pastors a church with his wife, who describes herself as a Catholic women priest. There are other dissident priests who have conducted same-sex weddings. The existence of these things does not change what we believe as Catholics. It is the same for the Orthodox Church. 

Regarding Seraphim Rose, the Orthodox don't have the same concept of purgatory that we have, but a few Orthodox saints and scholars have written about a mystical journey after death in which the soul is tempted by devils who want to snatch it to hell. This idea, however, has never been formally promulgated within Orthodoxy and it isn't a mainstream view. In fact, Seraphim Rose is probably the only contemporary Orthodox thinker who advocates it. It's worth noting that a monk who is also a saint in Catholicism, John Climacus, painted a similar picture to Seraphim Rose in his Ladder of Divine Ascent. The Catholic Church has excellent theologians who are off-base on certain things (after all, we have saints who didn't believe in the Immaculate Conception!) and others who are complete loose canons, but again, this doesn't change the Faith itself. So we can hardly go about declaring Orthodox Christians to be heretics because they face similar theological tangles to the ones we've had ourselves.

Edited August 6, 2015 by beatitude

[marigold]

@‌Catlick, in regards to your two quotes, I'm not going to defend things that are obviously not Christian, to quote Fr. Seraphim back at you.

But to address the issue of ethnocentrism - the tribe at prayer. I am sure you know some of this already, Catlick, but it's worth explaining for the sake of 'little ones' who might be scandalised if the comment goes without challenge. This is a serious wound in the Body of Christ, and it discredits us in the eyes of many who are looking for Christ. But what brings me comfort is the knowledge that it is the result of sin and history on our part, and it is not the teaching of the Orthodox Church; it is not who we are when we are ourselves. As unfixable as it sometimes seems, it is only skin deep.

We are Christ's Body, and we cannot stop Christ being Christ, no matter how much we sin against him. That is the point of the article in the OP, and that is also why we don't want a vicar standing in for Christ at the head of the Church in his absence - because he is not absent from us.

The development of the see of Rome into what it is today, is bound up in the fact that while the eastern side of the Empire was dotted with apostolic sees, Rome was the only one in the western side. As this western side was brought into the Empire and civilised, the bishop of Rome, being pretty much the only major 'governmental representative' in the area, took on more and more of a monarchic role. In the eastern part of the Empire, things had already been civilised for a while and so it was easier for the bishops - being closer together geographically too, and eventually all speaking Greek while Rome alone continued using the earlier lingua franca of the Empire, that is, Latin - to maintain the collegiality and equality under Christ that they had enjoyed from the beginning.

This historical outcome - which forms, in my opinion, the greater part of the schism, doctrinal questions being a result of them - is largely why Catholics today cannot really conceive of a unity that is not based on administration, on jurisdiction. In my experience, the mantra of 'stick with Rome at all costs' seems to be drummed into all, to the extent that jurisdictional unity takes precedence over unity in the content of the faith. Cf. 'Uniates'.

Meanwhile, the Orthodox Church maintains an absolute integrity of faith and practice, worldwide. When she is herself, she integrates the culture of any place she finds herself, worships in the vernacular according to ancient practice, is comfortable using three or four different Eucharistic liturgies (of John Chrysostom, Basil, James, I always forget the others), easily absorbs natural minor variations in practice, and continues to insist that nothing in the faith can be changed without the consent of all. So in establishing worldwide jurisdiction according to the praxis of only one apostolic see, you might say that you are the ones who are the tribe at prayer

On one level, I wish Roman Catholicism was true. I really do. It would make my life a lot easier, and there is much to like about the historical Latin practice of the faith. But I have yet to hear a truly convincing argument for the historical outcome of the schism being in favour of Rome as the Body of Christ.

Edited August 6, 2015 by marigold
why is my font so funny?

[beatitude]

Meanwhile, the Orthodox Church maintains an absolute integrity of faith and practice, worldwide. When she is herself, she integrates the culture of any place she finds herself, worships in the vernacular according to ancient practice, is comfortable using three or four different Eucharistic liturgies (of John Chrysostom, Basil, James, I always forget the others), easily absorbs natural minor variations in practice, and continues to insist that nothing in the faith can be changed without the consent of all. So in establishing worldwide jurisdiction according to the praxis of only one apostolic see, you might say that you are the ones who are the tribe at prayer

Marigold, I know this is the ideal, but in practice I don't think it always looks this way. I have sometimes attended the Romanian Orthodox church in Jerusalem with an Orthodox friend, and near the entrance there is an icon of Our Lady that also incorporates the map of Romania. The map includes chunks of neighbouring countries and calls that territory Romanian. There is a streak of ethnic nationalism in that icon. To be honest I've run into it in other Orthodox circles as well. This is the risk that comes with having several apostolic sees: it gets easy to mistake nationalism for faith. I think the multilingual, multicultural nature of the Roman curia makes the Catholic Church less susceptible to this particular problem, although we have other problems of our own that I do not think will go away until there is reconciliation. The schism wounded all of us in different ways.

Edited August 6, 2015 by beatitude

[marigold]

Marigold, I know this is the ideal, but in practice I don't think it always looks this way. I have sometimes attended the Romanian Orthodox church in Jerusalem with an Orthodox friend, and near the entrance there is an icon of Our Lady that also incorporates the map of Romania. The map includes chunks of neighbouring countries and calls that territory Romanian. There is a streak of ethnic nationalism in that icon. To be honest I've run into it in other Orthodox circles as well. This is the risk that comes with having several apostolic sees: it gets easy to mistake nationalism for faith. I think the multilingual, multicultural nature of the Roman curia makes the Catholic Church less susceptible to this particular problem, although we have other problems of our own that I do not think will go away until there is reconciliation. The schism wounded all of us in different ways.

Agreed!

[MarysLittleFlower]

Not to start a debate because I think a) that's unhelpful and b) this isn't a debate thread... But to clarify the Catholic position, we don't see it like we have the Pope to fill in an absense of Christ. Rather, he's the visible representative while Christ is with us invisibly.

Regarding development of the Papacy... When I was leaving Protestantism I had to make a choice - to be Catholic or Orthodox. It was probably the hardest decision of my life. I began to research and both sides seemed to support their view with historical information. I read quite a bit about the Orthodox view but also Catholic... I did find some things supporting the Catholic position for example the idea that seemed to be present that for an Ecumenical Council to be valid, it needs to have the Pope or a Papal representative. I'll include  a couple quotes I saved to demonstrate

"..For he only speaks in vain who thinks he ought to persuade or entrap persons like myself, and does not satisfy and implore the blessed Pope of the most holy Catholic Church of the Romans, that is, the Apostolic See, which is from the incarnate of the Son of God Himself, and also all the holy synods, according to the holy canons and definitions has received universal and supreme dominion, authority, and power of binding and loosing over all the holy churches of God throughout the whole world."
-Saint Maximus the Confessor (c. 650) (Maximus, Letter to Peter, in Mansi x, 692).

St Theodore the Studite (759-829) urged the emperor to consult the
pope: "If there is anything in the patriarch's reply about which you
feel doubt or disbelief... you may ask the chief elder in Rome for
clarification, as has been the practice from the beginning according
to inherited tradition."

 

[MarysLittleFlower]

My story. i have experience of both churches and this is a topic close to my heart. As i researched and had discussions with Orthodox people these quotes were debated too. Every side had an argument. In the end I nearly had a crisis of faith and began living in much fear because I was afraid of making the wrong choice and risking my salvation. See i was Protestant but i was baptized Orthodox as a child and i was told if you leave the true Church you go to hell. What is the true Church? I felt lost.

I had no trust of my reason anymore because it seemed the evidence could sound Catholic or Orthodox depending on what books you read. I began just feeling a strong peace about some Catholic things.. For example the scapular.

My belief in the Papacy.. I got on the bus not believing in the Pope and got off the bus believing. I still don't understand my conversion fully but I remember this strong peace and at some point I realised my beliefs are Catholic. It didn't go against my reason and God used things I read but I was unable to use my reason alone in such a hard decision. 

After, I still struggled with fear at a specific point. I was so afraid that I made the wrong choice and for a long time, I woke up each morning in great fear. I learned about historical things supporting Catholicism and even an accepted private revelation called Our Lady of Good Success that points to the Papacy. But i also read Orthodox arguments too and i couldnt figure out who is right.

One night I couldn't sleep due to this intense and paralyzing fear of hell. I know this sounds extreme but it was some sort of trial for me. That night, God intervened. It was actually through an Orthodox relative and something near miraculous happened. I was pointed to Catholicism and the fear left and I was filled with the greatest peace and consolation in my heart. That's basically the reason I'm Catholic.

Of course i hope if I somehow made a mistake that God would help me understand. I want very much to follow the truth. However i firmly believe in the Church and i dont doubt it. That's just what happened and now I'm Catholic. I know many people discern by researching - this only confused me and my only option was to turn to Jesus in my distress. So I understand people who struggle with this topic. I hope the two churches would reunite with all my heart. I love much in Orthodoxy like the liturgy - it is so beautiful. I attend Eastern Catholic liturgy sometimes and I love the East too. 

[MarysLittleFlower]

To all the Orthodox posters here there are theological differences that are important for sure. I believe in the Papacy and Catholic doctrine and i really dislike the schism. I would like union with the Pope.

But I feel no dislike for the Orthodox people themselves despite the fact that I became Catholic, and I pray for reunification. I only feel love for them and sorrow for the schism. I like Eastern spirituality and its totally compatible with Catholicism. I also have some Orthodox family and a friend, and we share about lots about stuff we have in common.

Also im not downplaying the seriousness of the doctrinal differences here but its true the Orthodox have the Sacraments and much more in common with Catholics than than Protestants do, and that helps in discussions. If the reunification happens in our lifetime I'd be so happy to receive Communion together :D

Edited August 6, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower

[marigold]

I can sympathise with that confusion and fear of making the wrong choice, MLF. I don't feel the fear so much as frustration that I can't resolve the issue. I considered the Catholic Church in my teens, went to church and read some books. I grew up within walking distance of Notting Hill Carmel, and would sometimes go and walk by the 9-metre walls and daydream about what was on the other side. But in the end, like you, it seemed to be grace that won the day when I a couple of years later discovered an Orthodox parish and 'the rest was history'... I try to maintain friendly links, I enjoy Phatmass, and occasionally pop in to a mass just to see what's going on. I'm sure that makes me as bad as a heretic, to some But I try to keep an open heart, not have any axes to grind, and be on the lookout for truth over and above what my personal preferences are. I think that's all God can ask anyone on either side...