the phorum...

[MarysLittleFlower]

Nunsense, I'm glad to know I'm welcome here but I'm not sure anymore if it's helping me much because I get upset. I know my posts sound very rigid. I'm.wrong in how i speak so I don't wish to excuse myself... But I do believe that others know Jesus and I actually struggle with much self doubt about my own journey and discernmrmt. Even my SD said my main problem is fear. I often fear deluding myself and become paralysed spiritually until God helps me somehow.

 At the same time I am trying to be faithful to what I believe is God's Will for me and sometimes there are difficulties so i try to be firm. This leads me to want to commit strongly to things and by nature im like that. Some things I believe are only for me and I generally don't talk about them. With makeup it was only about me at first but later I formed a view about the topic itself from the Saints. Its a strong view I know and i made mistakes in how I articulated it...it could be some things are inaccurate as well as I understood them.. Who knows. I know I also need to be careful because I don't want to exagerrate and think everyone who wears makeup is in mortal sin.

I think I tried to address Sister Marie's points by addressing the comparison of makeup and hyegine and straightening teeth. Maybe I did that badly. Anyway I just wanted to say I don't believe I'm better at finding out the truth than others because I often have fears of deluding myself. At the same time I feel strongly about the topics. So I think it might help me more to not discuss these things and I'm probably doing a poor job explaining them, which can be annoying. Maybe its time for me to be silent and then I won't speak as pridefully :),

[AccountDeleted]

Nunsense, I'm glad to know I'm welcome here but I'm not sure anymore if it's helping me much because I get upset. I know my posts sound very rigid. I'm.wrong in how i speak so I don't wish to excuse myself... But I do believe that others know Jesus and I actually struggle with much self doubt about my own journey and discernmrmt. Even my SD said my main problem is fear. I often fear deluding myself and become paralysed spiritually until God helps me somehow.

 At the same time I am trying to be faithful to what I believe is God's Will for me and sometimes there are difficulties so i try to be firm. This leads me to want to commit strongly to things and by nature im like that. Some things I believe are only for me and I generally don't talk about them. With makeup it was only about me at first but later I formed a view about the topic itself from the Saints. Its a strong view I know and i made mistakes in how I articulated it...it could be some things are inaccurate as well as I understood them.. Who knows. I know I also need to be careful because I don't want to exagerrate and think everyone who wears makeup is in mortal sin.

I think I tried to address Sister Marie's points by addressing the comparison of makeup and hyegine and straightening teeth. Maybe I did that badly. Anyway I just wanted to say I don't believe I'm better at finding out the truth than others because I often have fears of deluding myself. At the same time I feel strongly about the topics. So I think it might help me more to not discuss these things and I'm probably doing a poor job explaining them, which can be annoying. Maybe its time for me to be silent and then I won't speak as pridefully :),

You know what, MLF? You are wound up just as tight as a ball of string. It reminds me so much of my niece. She was always a very serious young lady, even as a toddler, and we all knew it. My brother-in-law (from another sister) used to tease her and say 'Lighten up Missy!' and then smile at her. It didn't really help I suppose but we didn't know what else to do. Today she is still a serious young lady - nearly 30, and a lawyer. But she is perfect, just as she is, and I admire and respect her a great deal.

I don't know if your fear is because you think God can't love you unless you are perfect or a saint or whatever, but guess what? He loves you just the way you are. And as admirable as it is to try to please Him, don't let it be out of fear - let it be out of trust and love and the knowledge that even if you do fall, He is still going to love you.Peter denied Him three times at a time of great personal distress for Jesus, and yet, when Jesus met up with Peter later, He didn't try to make Him feel bad. He just kept asking Peter if he loved Him. Because Jesus still loved Peter, and He wanted Peter to know and accept that, and to love Him - not fear Him because of what he had done.

I am glad you have a strong view about makeup that you formed from reading about the Saints. That's great for you.But I don't believe it. I don't agree with it, and I certainly don't think wearing makeup is any kind of a sin, venial or mortal. So we will agree to disagree on that one. You will stick to your opinion because of your saints and I will stick to my opinion because I haven't seen any reasoning that makes it clear to me that the actual use of makeup is a sin. Just the opinions of very fallible, very human saints, who decided that makeup wasn't for them (especially valid in their time and place). 

My God is a God of love and joy at seeing His human beings happy and feeling good about themselves. Throwing around words like vanity and humility and pride etc - well these things are all interior states, and all of them are open to interpretation. What might seem like vanity to one person, might simply be a healthy self-esteem to another. To be humble, one does not have to be a 'worm' (one of St Teresa's favorite expressions 'I am a worm.'). NadaTeTurbe talked about how abuse victims used makeup to help bolster their feeling of self-esteem again. This is not vanity - this is healthy. I am never going to crawl on the ground saying, 'Oh Lord, I am unworthy.' That's not me. I know I am unworthy of the love that sustains me, but I also know that He doesn't demand I grovel in servility any more than He demands a human sacrifice from me! My relationship with God is not one of servant and Master (although He is my Lord and Master) but one of Father and Child, Lover and Beloved, etc etc. I adore Jesus. I worship God.I BELONG to Him. But I am not afraid of Him. Trust wipes away fear. And I trust Him with all my heart and soul and life... and the events of my life have shaped me and molded me to be that way. There have been times of doubt and fear but always I have felt Him holding me, and even when I would get angry at Him, I knew that He was big enough to take it. I'm in love with God and I know He is in love with me. And He simply couldn't care less whether I wear makeup or not. I have no idea whether the woman caught in adultery was wearing makeup or the woman of low virtue who washed his feet etc, but He still loved them. And if it turns out that wearing makeup is a huge old sin, then Jesus' words comfort me, 'Therefore I say to you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven, for she loved much.'

I will keep you in my heart that you somehow learn to trust that God is always going to love you - no matter what. And try to be as perfect as you want to, but don't make yourself ill over it or expect that everyone is going to agree with you. He will still love you, perfect or not. And is you spend more time thinking about love and less time thinking about sins, well, you will be holy AND happy.

Don't keep silent unless it make you feel better - the rest of us are coping just fine!

 

PS I really hate that I can't use the editor anymore to get rid of unwanted code, like font sizes! Anyway, small problems...  

Edited August 4, 2015 by nunsense

[julianneoflongbeach]

I'm very sorry if I hurt your feelings before. I can be very blunt and harsh. I also don't want you to leave, you're one of the few people I like here... That probably doesn't recommend me much, but...

You seem to me to need a LOT of positive reinforcement and really freak out if what you get is negative. I don't mind anything you say or how you say it, but I think you need to learn when to let things go and convince yourself it's not worth getting upset over if other people don't get it.

People seem to misunderstand most of what I say and it's very hard to not go back and explain and defend. I fail quite a bit, but I try to leave things be when I know I can't make it clearer or better.

 

[MarysLittleFlower]

Nunsense, thank you for your encouraging words here's what its like for me. I went through something last year where I realised my littleness but I also.realised it is good because it glorifies God's Mercy. It made me happy. I know He loves me though I very often feel devoid of any virtue. Yes Jesus loves us, "madly" as St Josemaria would say.

However, there are times when I become fearful of myself. My past frightens me, or I wonder have I made everything up? I'm taking a risk in my familydiscerning religious life and I'm afraid to hurt them. I believe all these things happen to help me learn more trust I agree I need more trust. However there were times God helped me find it more and it gives much peace and fortitude.

But I'd say - just in my opinion and who knows if I'm wrong or right - my motive with all these resolutions is not fear. I know God loves us as we are.. Of course we need to love Him fully in return - not out of fear but in gratitude.

Part of it is being faithful towhere He leads. I believe we all have things we do to show Him love we try to obey what it seems He wants... I want for Jesus to be everything to me and He is. He is our Beloved  the only goal in life is to love Him even to folly. Only with His help I hope to get there.. 

I'm very sorry if I hurt your feelings before. I can be very blunt and harsh. I also don't want you to leave, you're one of the few people I like here... That probably doesn't recommend me much, but...

You seem to me to need a LOT of positive reinforcement and really freak out if what you get is negative. I don't mind anything you say or how you say it, but I think you need to learn when to let things go and convince yourself it's not worth getting upset over if other people don't get it.

People seem to misunderstand most of what I say and it's very hard to not go back and explain and defend. I fail quite a bit, but I try to leave things be when I know I can't make it clearer or better.

 

I'm not upset at you at all Julianne! I am too sensitive.  Maybe its from my personality and past wounds. You're very right!   I need to let that go somehow.

Edited August 4, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower

[AccountDeleted]

Nunsense, thank you for your encouraging words here's what its like for me. I went through something last year where I realised my littleness but I also.realised it is good because it glorifies God's Mercy. It made me happy. I know He loves me though I very often feel devoid of any virtue. Yes Jesus loves us, "madly" as St Josemaria would say.

However, there are times when I become fearful of myself. My past frightens me, or I wonder have I made everything up? I'm taking a risk in my familydiscerning religious life and I'm afraid to hurt them. I believe all these things happen to help me learn more trust I agree I need more trust. However there were times God helped me find it more and it gives much peace and fortitude.

But I'd say - just in my opinion and who knows if I'm wrong or right - my motive with all these resolutions is not fear. I know God loves us as we are.. Of course we need to love Him fully in return - not out of fear but in gratitude.

Part of it is being faithful towhere He leads. I believe we all have things we do to show Him love we try to obey what it seems He wants... I want for Jesus to be everything to me and He is. He is our Beloved  the only goal in life is to love Him even to folly. Despite my fear that is what I want. 

Finally,I agree completely with something you post! We need to celebrate!  

Perhaps I might just put something in here though that I have learned as a result of my advanced years. It might be useful - maybe not, but maybe years later you will remember it.

When we ask God for something that is for our own good (like faith or hope or trust or love etc), He will give it. But the way He gives it is to test us - not in a 'Gotcha' kind of way, but in a tempering steel kind of way. So, for example, if we ask for trust, He might take away everything from us, and then put us in one impossible situation after another. That sounds harsh, but it's sort of a make it or break it kind of thing for trust. We either learn to trust at that point because we have nothing, or we get angry (which He can deal with as well) or we give up, well, you get what I mean. The whole point in the end is to prove to ourselves that He is all we have and all we need. Basta solo Dios.

So, if someone like you is asking for perfection, the it is going to come at a great cost. And you might even find yourself in situations where you feel you have done everything that God has asked of you, and yet things have not turned out as you expected. Why? If the instructions say "Do A and B will follow.' You do A but B does not follow- in fact you find you are at Z. 

What am I saying? Just realize that God may ask things of you, but don't get too attached to the results. You want to stay true to what you believe, but then you get all upset when others disagree with you. It's like you are saying, "God, I am doing what you asked. Why doesn't everyone see that and why don't I feel good about it?' Detachment. Do it because you feel it is the right thing to do. But don't get attached to how it ends up making you feel. At least, that's my advice if you want to continue on this very inflexible path. At my age, I have reached a different stage of understanding, but I remember being full of the passion of youth, and probably would have been just like you! In fact, if I ever took time to read back over some of my early Phatmass posts, I probably was just like you only 8 years ago - and I was already old then! LOL What changed for me? Well, doing A and getting Z, I think. But along the way, I learned to trust God like nobody's business. And I wouldn't give up any of the pain and suffering along the way to get that prize! 

Stay cool. 

[Anomaly]

 

Veteran phatmassers and Mediators of Meh see debates (often the same ones repeatedly) and we're like:

I think that attitude is very unfortunate.  I've been posting on PhatMass and visiting since year one.   Lots of people have come and gone.   Just because you've been there and have done that does not mean some one else shouldn't or can't experience it for the first time.  

I've read and learned from Catholics and non-Catholics (when I was Catholic too!).   The nice thing about the internet is you get to converse with people you may not ever talk to in analog life.  From Tab, Dairy, and Budge, to Cam, Fr Greg, and Bro Adam.   

Sometimes it is upsetting when people don't hear what you think you're saying or say what you think shouldn't be heard.  Breaks are nice, we're all free to come and go. It has to be pretty egregious for anyone to be asked to go or asked to shut up.  

[BarbTherese]

I am thankful, grateful to God, for TV just now - still getting over missing the clients and fellow workers with voluntary work and that's my excuse and I'm sticking to it.  I absolutely love MASH, Everyone Loves Raymond and Friends............escapism?..............you got it!

[Nihil Obstat]

 

I think that attitude is very unfortunate.  I've been posting on PhatMass and visiting since year one.   Lots of people have come and gone.   Just because you've been there and have done that does not mean some one else shouldn't or can't experience it for the first time.  

I've read and learned from Catholics and non-Catholics (when I was Catholic too!).   The nice thing about the internet is you get to converse with people you may not ever talk to in analog life.  From Tab, Dairy, and Budge, to Cam, Fr Greg, and Bro Adam.   

Sometimes it is upsetting when people don't hear what you think you're saying or say what you think shouldn't be heard.  Breaks are nice, we're all free to come and go. It has to be pretty egregious for anyone to be asked to go or asked to shut up.  

I think we should ask Cam to come back. He is good people.

[MarysLittleFlower]

Finally,I agree completely with something you post! We need to celebrate!  

Perhaps I might just put something in here though that I have learned as a result of my advanced years. It might be useful - maybe not, but maybe years later you will remember it.

When we ask God for something that is for our own good (like faith or hope or trust or love etc), He will give it. But the way He gives it is to test us - not in a 'Gotcha' kind of way, but in a tempering steel kind of way. So, for example, if we ask for trust, He might take away everything from us, and then put us in one impossible situation after another. That sounds harsh, but it's sort of a make it or break it kind of thing for trust. We either learn to trust at that point because we have nothing, or we get angry (which He can deal with as well) or we give up, well, you get what I mean. The whole point in the end is to prove to ourselves that He is all we have and all we need. Basta solo Dios.

So, if someone like you is asking for perfection, the it is going to come at a great cost. And you might even find yourself in situations where you feel you have done everything that God has asked of you, and yet things have not turned out as you expected. Why? If the instructions say "Do A and B will follow.' You do A but B does not follow- in fact you find you are at Z. 

What am I saying? Just realize that God may ask things of you, but don't get too attached to the results. You want to stay true to what you believe, but then you get all upset when others disagree with you. It's like you are saying, "God, I am doing what you asked. Why doesn't everyone see that and why don't I feel good about it?' Detachment. Do it because you feel it is the right thing to do. But don't get attached to how it ends up making you feel. At least, that's my advice if you want to continue on this very inflexible path. At my age, I have reached a different stage of understanding, but I remember being full of the passion of youth, and probably would have been just like you! In fact, if I ever took time to read back over some of my early Phatmass posts, I probably was just like you only 8 years ago - and I was already old then! LOL What changed for me? Well, doing A and getting Z, I think. But along the way, I learned to trust God like nobody's business. And I wouldn't give up any of the pain and suffering along the way to get that prize! 

Stay cool. 

Yay we agree I'm glad. That is a great point. Yes God gives us virtues by testing virtue... I didn't think of it like that at the time. It makes sense.. Maybe everything will not turn out like I hope. If the result of our efforts is suffering - is that not the best gift? It is to live on the Cross. Only God's Will matters and if Jesus is happy. All that He chooses is good: success or suffering. so we can trust.

In your post do you mean that you see it now that God loves us in our imperfection? I read that He allows imperfections to protect us from pride. I want to love Him in all things but I believe holiness is not just our efforts but allowing Jesus to live and not us. I believe in making allthe efforts out of love and to lessen self will, but this is to.give Him more freedom to act and let Him have His way. Do you think this is so? I got it from the saints too but im bad at living it out  what I'm trying to say is that even as we strive for perfection we would still be imperfect. Otherwise we'd rely on ourselves. Then we can let Him consume all the weakness and live through us Himself though with our cooperation.  

 

 

Edited August 4, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower

[AccountDeleted]

Yay we agree I'm glad. That is a great point. Yes God gives us virtues by testing virtue... I didn't think of it like that at the time. It makes sense.. Maybe everything will not turn out like I hope. If the result of our efforts is suffering - is that not the best gift? It is to live on the Cross. Only God's Will matters and if Jesus is happy. All that He chooses is good: success or suffering. so we can trust.

In your post do you mean that you see it now that God loves us in our imperfection? I read that He allows imperfections to protect us from pride. I want to love Him in all things but I believe holiness is not just our efforts but allowing Jesus to live and not us. I believe in making allthe efforts out of love and to lessen self will, but this is to.give Him more freedom to act and let Him have His way. Do you think this is so? I got it from the saints too but im bad at living it out

 

Well, we agree on some things-that loving God is what it's all about. But I don't agree that the point of life is to suffer and live on the Cross - sorry. That's as bad to me as thinking that all prayer should be done in dryness when I believe in ecstatic union with God as a goal. I believe that redemptive suffering is a vital component of human life and that we can learn through suffering, but God isn't some cruel slave-driver who wants us to suffer and so makes His will impossible for us to fulfill. Not for me.

God is love, and if we have to suffer, He suffers right along with us, holding us and lifting us and helping us (like any loving parent would do for a suffering child)  to get through it to the other side, so we can experience the joy of the resurrection (when we pass through the suffering to the other side). For example, I have endured great suffering to get to a stage of total trust in God. I don't continue to experience the suffering now - hanging on the Cross is not my goal, but getting to the resurrection is. The suffering had a purpose and achieved it. Certainly more suffering will be in my life but it isn't my goal to seek it out. God knows when it will be necessary for me. Suffering is all about resurrection, dying and being reborn again. God has always loved us in our imperfection but I don't believe He allows it to keep us from pride. A true saint doesn't even think about things like pride and humility - they just are. St Therese said that she thought humility was simply honesty. It would be false humility to deny gifts that God has given us but false pride to claim credit for them either. A simple acknowledgement that we have been blessed with gifts is enough. The reason He wants to help us get rid of imperfection is because He wants us to experience more love - and imperfection (of soul)  can block that, so He helps us to perfection - but not perfection of body or mind - perfection of heart and soul = love.

Self-will is not a bad thing either and trying to beat it down all the time will only make it stronger in rebellion.The human will is an amazing thing. God doesn't want us to give up our free will, He just wants us to use it well. And the more good choices we make, the easier it gets to keep making good choices. God isn't some micro-manager who wants to control every teeny aspect of our lives (like whether we wear makeup or not). Jesus gave us two commandments only.Love God. Love each other. We can use our self-will to aim for those two commandments. It won't be the same for every individual. For you, you think that makeup will keep you away from the goal. for me, it might be impatience. I tend to focus more on the intangibles rather than the physical failings because I just don't think they matter as much as state of mind and heart and soul. But that's me. Those who focus on rules and regulations will disagree, but I try to stick to the spirit of the law. I follow the rules, but I am not a slave to them. I trust that God, who blessed me with the gift of good common sense,  will help me discern when I need to make my own choice.

So for me, suffering is a tool that can be used to shape us, imperfection is the basic human state. Only God is perfect.

Edited August 4, 2015 by nunsense

[MarysLittleFlower]

Haha it seems some things were lost in translation or we just have different perspectives . I mostly don't analyze the physical things now I just live what I decided, and now I am dealing with the intangible stuff more. There's a lot  I noticed sometimes certain spiritualities one is more drawn to than others. Im drawn to the Passion and when I said to be on the Cross with Jesus I meant it in a joyful way. of course then there's the Resurrection yes! That is good. And I certainly don't believe prayer is always to be dry.

But when I had that thought it was like - to love Jesus as He loved us! Everything is a chance to love and if all my plans result in suffering - I don't like to suffer but its like being with Him in His pain, to comfort Him and  so He is not alone.. To show love in the way He showed it to us... It doesn't seem like a depressing thing.. Of course its not forever. And if God makes my dreams succeed then I'll be happy because its His Will and I want it accomplished. It can be His Will either way: for my plans to lead to B or Z. 

But I feel like it would be a great gift if my only reward is a chance to love Him with no other satisfaction than that. Maybe we just feel drawn to different spiritualities!

As for God's Will and our will... I believe holiness is found in perfect submission to His Will, as the fall was due to self will. It doesn't mean we lose our faculty of free will.. We just use it to submit it totally It doesnt mean He is a micro manager.. If He is exacting its in a way that makes me love Him because its out of a longing for my soul completely.

I think its so good if God is jealous for our love. Its like a sign of His desire for total union and the totality of His thirst for us. It makes me feel loved if He wants my every moment, every detail. I feel it is so.. I don't know to me these things feel joyful and make me just think of love. They make me fall in love with Him more and more. They don't make me feel any fear but they take away the fear of suffering I get. 

Maybe God gave us different approaches to love and each emphasizes a different point  what I described brings me much joy though they seem at first to be about pain but its not the pain that attracts me but loving Him more and forgetting self.. I'm not saying your approach is wrong! Its just interesting how people are different. 

I agree about the Resurrection being after the Cross, that imperfections also keep us from love (though I believe He allows us to make mistakes unwillingly to humble us), and that Jesus suffers with us and helps us. There are many sufferings He doesn't allow if they're too much for us. If God takes away a suffering im grateful because of His kindness. But if He keeps me there I want to be equally grateful and only care if His Will is done. Not where I am or what I'm doing or if I'm suffering or not sufferng... but just His Will. If He allows me to suffer I want to be happy that this is my chance to love with no satisfaction but His Will. So love truly becomes all I'm not there yet though lol. 

Edited August 4, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower

[AccountDeleted]

Haha it seems some things were lost in translation or we just have different perspectives . I mostly don't analyze the physical things now I just live what I decided, and now I am dealing with the intangible stuff more. There's a lot  I noticed sometimes certain spiritualities one is more drawn to than others. Im drawn to the Passion and when I said to be on the Cross with Jesus I meant it in a joyful way. of course then there's the Resurrection yes! That is good. And I certainly don't believe prayer is always to be dry.

But when I had that thought it was like - to love Jesus as He loved us! Everything is a chance to love and if all my plans result in suffering - I don't like to suffer but its like being with Him in His pain, to comfort Him and  so He is not alone.. To show love in the way He showed it to us... It doesn't seem like a depressing thing.. Of course its not forever. And if God makes my dreams succeed then I'll be happy because its His Will and I want it accomplished. It can be His Will either way: for my plans to lead to B or Z. 

But I feel like it would be a great gift if my only reward is a chance to love Him with no other satisfaction than that. Maybe we just feel drawn to different spiritualities!

As for God's Will and our will... I believe holiness is found in perfect submission to His Will, as the fall was due to self will. It doesn't mean we lose our faculty of free will.. We just use it to submit it totally It doesnt mean He is a micro manager.. If He is exacting its in a way that makes me love Him because its out of a longing for my soul completely.

I think its so good if God is jealous for our love. Its like a sign of His desire for total union and the totality of His thirst for us. It makes me feel loved if He wants my every moment, every detail. I feel it is so.. I don't know to me these things feel joyful and make me just think of love. They make me fall in love with Him more and more. They don't make me feel any fear but they take away the fear of suffering I get. 

Maybe God gave us different approaches to love and each emphasizes a different point  what I described brings me much joy though they seem at first to be about pain but its not the pain that attracts me but loving Him more and forgetting self.. I'm not saying your approach is wrong! Its just interesting how people are different. 

And I'm not saying your approach is wrong either ... 

But, what you write sounds very convoluted to me. One minute you are upset that others don't agree with you, then you talk about all this fear, and then you talk about suffering, and now you say it all makes you happy and in love. Wow.

I think you and I aren't going to find a common ground here because you can't imagine what I am talking about (we are too far apart in years) and I can't remember that kind of intense complexity (if I ever had it to that degree).

To me, it's all just so simple and can be explained in three words. God is love.

End of story for me.

[MarysLittleFlower]

Nunsense its not complicated for me either its just that when I was posting and people disagreed, I became afraid. Then I think God helped me to realise (with the help of posts here and yours) that I shouldn't get discouraged or upset by this. I began to reflect on the value of suffering (forgotten while I was suffering), and it all came back to me. So its like I struggled and then God helped. Nothing convoluted  

[AccountDeleted]

Nunsense its not complicated for me either its just that when I was posting and people disagreed, I became afraid. Then I think God helped me to realise (with the help of posts here and yours) that I shouldn't get discouraged or upset by this. I began to reflect on the value of suffering (forgotten while I was suffering), and it all came back to me. So its like I struggled and then God helped. Nothing convoluted  

[Credo in Deum]