God's love being infinite

[AccountDeleted]

 

My priest would disagree with you that God loves everyone strictly equally.

Assuming Judas is in hell - which is not an unreasonable assumption as it does seem to be part of the Church's ordinary Magisterium - is it then correct to say that God loves the condemned Judas equally to the Blessed Virgin Mary?

Well, if your priest is talking about Jesus, then I can perfectly understand why he would think this.Jesus was not only God, He was human too. As a human He appeared to have many favorites, like Peter and John and of course, His mother and Joseph. He also had some people He didn't care too much about, such as the scribes and pharisees. 

I was referring to God, the Father, the Almighty, the Alpha and the Omega, without beginning or end - infinite. And God certainly did love Judas equally with every other human He has created, but Judas was unable to trust in Jesus or accept the love that was being offered and he became twisted inside. We don't know why Judas betrayed Jesus - was it because Judas didn't believe Jesus was God, or simply because he suffered from jealousy of others or did he want the money? But if we go on the theory that Judas did what he did because God loved him less than He loved others others, then how could we blame Judas for what he did - he didn't stand a chance. He had been shortchanged.

So, no, I disagree with your priest when we are talking about how God loves us. He doesn't give some more and some less and then blame the ones with less for being less holy than those He gave more to. This is human thinking - it's much too limiting for a God of infinite love. I stick with God loving all equally but not all accepting His love and returning it.

Edited August 5, 2015 by nunsense

[KnightofChrist]

God doesn't give some of us quarters and some of us pennies. He gives all of us infinite and perfect love.what we do with it is the difference.

Of course God's love for us is infinitely more than the value of quarters or pennies. What we do with God's love does make a difference as the parable of the King who gave out gold coins to his servants shows. I'm sure you recall that parable but for those that do not, a King gave out one coin each to three servants and asked they invest it. One servant invested his coin and earned ten coins and was rewarded charge of ten cities, another invested his coin and earned five coins and was rewarded charge of five cities, but one servant did nothing with his coin and had his coin taken away and given to the servant with ten and was rewarded nothing. So yes what we do with the love God gives us makes a difference.

God's love for us is perfect and is infinite however that doesn't mean it's equal, there can be different infinities and each have different values as previously shown. It is obvious God does love some more than others, the Jewish people and the Church for example, as well as Mary.

The Jewish people and the faithful of the Church, God's chosen people above others, have time and time again committed evil acts, forsaken God and turned to false idols or given more worth to something else. Yet God still chooses his people above others even though what they "do" with God's love is to reject it or throw it to the ground.

Mary was saved from sin before any of us even before she was conceived. Before she could even "do" anything with God's gifts. She was chosen by God above all other woman to bring God into this world, God the Son took her flesh and formed the physical body of Christ. God the Son dwelt in her for nine months, and dwell within her such a way that no other human being will ever know or fully understand. God the Son was subjected to her authority out of love for her during his childhood. He gave her to the care of the Church while he was nailed to the Cross, and after her life on the Earth was over took her into heaven and crowned her Queen of Heaven. All these examples are signs of God's love for Mary and ever single one shows that this love is a love that is greater than, not equal to, the love for any other creature. That's is ok, you said that 'humans want to compare and judge levels and degrees of love' but it is also true that humans want all things to be equal, we get jealous if we think someone is honored above us, and we envy those who are given more than us. If God does give bigger cups to some of us that is ok, because the he fills up all the cups he gives out with an infinite and perfect love.

Edited August 5, 2015 by KnightofChrist

[Nihil Obstat]

Well, if your priest is talking about Jesus, then I can perfectly understand why he would think this.Jesus was not only God, He was human too. As a human He appeared to have many favorites, like Peter and John and of course, His mother and Joseph. He also had some people He didn't care too much about, such as the scribes and pharisees. 

I was referring to God, the Father, the Almighty, the Alpha and the Omega, without beginning or end - infinite. And God certainly did love Judas equally with every other human He has created, but Judas was unable to trust in Jesus or accept the love that was being offered and he became twisted inside. We don't know why Judas betrayed Jesus - was it because Judas didn't believe Jesus was God, or simply because he suffered from jealousy of others or did he want the money? But if we go on the theory that Judas did what he did because God loved him less than He loved others others, then how could we blame Judas for what he did - he didn't stand a chance. He had been shortchanged.

So, no, I disagree with your priest when we are talking about how God loves us. He doesn't give some more and some less and then blame the ones with less for being less holy than those He gave more to. This is human thinking - it's much too limiting for a God of infinite love. I stick with God loving all equally but not all accepting His love and returning it.

Jesus Christ's human love was perfect, and therefore in perfect conformity with His love in His Divine personhood. The point is not that God love Judas less before his betrayal and death and that somehow caused his utter fall from grace. Rather, as a result of Judas' rejection of freely offered and perfect divine love, due to that refusal, God necessarily cannot love him as He loves His elect.

[MarysLittleFlower]

....imho.....it's not as if in Heaven we will be looking at someone else and wishing that God loved me as much as He loves that other person - wishing I had done better on earth to be loved more now...........All in Heaven will be perfectly fulfilled to capacity "4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes: and death shall be no more, nor mourning, nor crying, nor sorrow shall be any more, for the former things are passed away"  .........  Revelations Ch21

Of course!  

[AccountDeleted]

Jesus Christ's human love was perfect, and therefore in perfect conformity with His love in His Divine personhood. The point is not that God love Judas less before his betrayal and death and that somehow caused his utter fall from grace. Rather, as a result of Judas' rejection of freely offered and perfect divine love, due to that refusal, God necessarily cannot love him as He loves His elect.

Disagree that God cannot love Him as He loves His elect. God can do anything. But that's ok.I still like you.  

[Nihil Obstat]

 

Disagree that God cannot love Him as He loves His elect. God can do anything. But that's ok.I still like you.  

God cannot go against His nature. You know this.

[AccountDeleted]

 

God cannot go against His nature. You know this.

That's right, and His nature is LOVE.You know this too.  

[Nihil Obstat]

 

That's right, and His nature is LOVE.You know this too.  

What is the ultimate effect with regards to God's love when He says "depart from me, evildoers", or " I never knew you", or when they are cast into the outer darkness? God loves them as much as He loves the Blessed Virgin, after they have made their choice of final impenitence?

[Ice_nine]

This used to trouble me. It doesn't really anymore. Plus the one's that God loves the most seem to have to endure the most pain so there's a trade-off.

That may not be very helpful but I think other people have already explained it satisfactorily.

[AccountDeleted]

 

What is the ultimate effect with regards to God's love when He says "depart from me, evildoers", or " I never knew you", or when they are cast into the outer darkness? God loves them as much as He loves the Blessed Virgin, after they have made their choice of final impenitence?

Nihil, Nihil, Nihil. You don't get it, do you? God's love isn't conditional. That's human love.

Sure, He may have to act with justice according to our actions (witness Adam and Eve), but it doesn't affect His love for the individual. Once again, He gives equally, but not all accept equally.That's free will.

Maybe we would call it 'tough love'. I don't know. But the point is that we can't possibly comprehend the love that God has for each and every one of us. That's why the Cross is such an inconceivable act of love. God loves infinitely and always. But as finite humans, we can never truly comprehend God's love. that would be like trying to comprehend the Trinity. Some things really are beyond the understanding of even the very great and learned theologians and can't be wrapped up all nice and neat in a box. God's love is just one of those things. 

[MarysLittleFlower]

Regarding Judas - maybe God doesn't love who Judas is now because he has no love in him now. His idea of Judas when he was made was with love and Judas had a bit of that love and potential to improve all His life until it was too late. It doesn't mean God isn't love... Judas is just not *receiving* any love into himself and God can't find any of His love in him. However even the worst person on earth still has this cause there's hope for them and *love always hopes*. Just my understanding... God is love but its not reflected in Judas now - neither even potentially received or responded to. God's nature as Love isn't changed but in practice Judas isn't receiving it. I don't know if I'm right. 

Edited August 5, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower

[Nihil Obstat]

 

Nihil, Nihil, Nihil. You don't get it, do you? God's love isn't conditional. That's human love.

Sure, He may have to act with justice according to our actions (witness Adam and Eve), but it doesn't affect His love for the individual. Once again, He gives equally, but not all accept equally.That's free will.

Maybe we would call it 'tough love'. I don't know. But the point is that we can't possibly comprehend the love that God has for each and every one of us. That's why the Cross is such an inconceivable act of love. God loves infinitely and always. But as finite humans, we can never truly comprehend God's love. that would be like trying to comprehend the Trinity. Some things really are beyond the understanding of even the very great and learned theologians and can't be wrapped up all nice and neat in a box. God's love is just one of those things. 

Do not say I do not get it. I understand the issue just fine. I just disagree with you, and I know that I am safe it doing so as regards my orthodoxy.

[AccountDeleted]

 

Do not say I do not get it. I understand the issue just fine. I just disagree with you, and I know that I am safe it doing so as regards my orthodoxy.

Now, now, don't get all upset. Perhaps I said it clumsily. Perhaps what I should have said was, 'You don't get what I am trying to say." I could just be saying it in a way that you can't hear too. Because I kind of feel that if you did get what I mean, you might even agree. But that's besides the point. Even if we disagree, we can still be friends, can't we? We don't have infinite love, but we can share quite a bit if we try!  

[MarysLittleFlower]

Its like - we can say God loves in two ways... Him being Love which doesn't change. And Him loving in the way that we receive His love. As we receive His love, it is then in us and He loves Himself in us. This is the way that can have degrees and souls in hell don't have His love in them - this doesn't change that He is Love in Himself. Then somes souls like Our Lady most of all can receive more but God always loves with the same intensity. Would you both agree Nunsense and Nihil?

This used to trouble me. It doesn't really anymore. Plus the one's that God loves the most seem to have to endure the most pain so there's a trade-off.

That may not be very helpful but I think other people have already explained it satisfactorily.

That's true, suffering is a sign of His love too maybe one of the greatest because its a sharing in the Cross. 

[AccountDeleted]

Its like - we can say God loves in two ways... Him being Love which doesn't change. And Him loving in the way that we receive His love. As we receive His love, it is then in us and He loves Himself in us. This is the way that can have degrees and souls in hell don't have His love in them - this doesn't change that He is Love in Himself. Then somes souls like Our Lady most of all can receive more but God always loves with the same intensity. Would you both agree Nunsense and Nihil?

You might have to explain the concept of God loving in two ways a little more for me, MLF, because I don't really see it the way you have said it yet.

To me, God IS love.He is infinite.His love is infinite because He is His love. We are the ones who change - not Him. But I don't see it as 'Our Lady can receive more' as much as 'Our Lady chooses to accept more.' Free will. Then we might get into things like, why do some people choose to accept more etc but that isn't the question we started with, which is 'does God love some people more than others?' And I still say no.

But by all means explain it again and I will try to understand.

But now I have to go off to my volunteer work. Back online when I can...