Attracted and repulsed

[Gabriela]

I'm sorry. I don't understand the reference?

It means there may be something suspicious in your posts. New members who come in and immediately start talking divisively are often "Phishy" members with some extremist agenda. Your criticism of how some religious communities are living their rules is raising flags. If you're here in good faith, no worries: All will be well. If you have some axe to grind, we'll find out soon enough.

In the meantime, you are welcome, and we're glad to have you.  

I know this will sound harsh but have you actually read what you posted? It comes across as you being the only holy person in the world, and the reason you can't find a religious community is because none of them (in the whole world?) live the life the way it is meant to be lived. None of them are holy enough to understand how to live the Rule. None of them are like you - a saint.

Really? Do you really believe what you are posting about yourself? I would expect the stigmata at least, if you are that holy. 

Sorry to be rude, but I just can't believe what I'm reading. Time for a huge dose of castor oil and humility.

Come on, Nunsense. Don't be shy. Tell us what you really think.  

[AccountDeleted]

Come on, Nunsense. Don't be shy. Tell us what you really think.  

 

[MarysLittleFlower]

I don't think the person who is posting is phishy. Welcome to phatmass Simeon  

I also think we shouldnt see pride in his posts when we don't know him. His later posts clarify more. Wanting perfection doesn't necessarily mean seeing oneself as the holiest. 

Simeon, I'm not in your situation because I'm mostly looking at quite traditional communities with the Latin Mass but I think i understand what you mean. The religious orders were started to forsake the world and live only for God and you want this. That is a good and holy desire. I recommend speaking to a good SD just to give you peace of heart and guidance.

I can't guess what God's plan is in this but I don't think its a prideful thing - though it can be in cases. St John of the Cross was accused when he wanted to follow his Rule to perfection. Maybe God would call you to a stricter community or maybe some things would just be a cross. Other things may be a sacrifice of the will and opportunity to love the brothers. 

Its true that obedience is the greatest thing and its greater than sacrifice. A religious who eats dessert in obedience is more correct than one who disobeys to make a sacrifice. The best sacrifice is that of the will

at the same time I understanding wanting to enter community that helps to fight attachments. I don't know what communities you refer to and I agree with not mentioning them.

The only thing I thought is something that helped me one time. Maybe this is an opportunity for abandonment to you. abandon yourself to His Will where you are now, and it will be His work. Abandon especially in what is hardest to you. The true home of a religious soul is the Sacred Heart of Jesus. This is our refuge when we have no place to go to on earth. Trust and let him act I don't know if that is helpful but it comforted me at a certain time. God bless you!

Edited August 4, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower

[Sister Marie]

@Francis Clare: The 2nd Vatican counsel calls religious to live by the spirit of the founders definitely. But I simply meant that all I have access to is the letter in the rule and those letters in the rule are not followed, although from what I've studied of the founders the spirit is not being followed much either. As an example, St. Francis instructed his friars to never accept money, but material things directly (eg. accepting food instead of buying food with money). In this the spirit and letter seem to be the same in that St. Francis wanted his brothers to trust in Divine Providence completely. Perfectae Caritatis says, "With regard to religious poverty it is not enough to use goods in a way subject to the superior's will, but members must be poor both in fact and in spirit, their treasures being in heaven." So what I mean by the letter of the rule is the "fact" referred to here.

@Sister Marie: You're right in that a congregation is a community and not a collection of individualists, but John of the Cross lived the Carmelite charism to the max contrary to way almost every other other friar was living. Fr. Benedict Groeschel and others wanted to live the Capuchin charism more strongly and founded a new community that embraced the Capuchin poverty. An example that I consider off-putting are communities that have been traditionally devoted to poverty such as Franciscans and Carmelites that now have personal cars, Oakley reading glasses, iPhones, personal laptops, casual (non-habit) clothes worn outside of liturgy, frequent dinners out of community with benefactors, attending sporting events, and having unnecessary luxuries like Tempurpedic beds. These things seem not only unnecessary, but potentially damaging to communal mentality towards penance and mortification.

@Luigi: I feel called to a contemplative-active community that is mostly contemplative life that focuses their apostolic work on spiritual ministry such as . I feel called to a radical life of self abandonment through poverty that includes externals like sandals, two habits, bare bedroom, no cushioned furniture, and observances like these so that whatever the poor lack I want to lack as well.

Both the examples you gave were religious BEFORE they were reformers... They lived the life before they had anything to say about it.  You haven't lived the life.  Times have changed.  I don't belong to either of those communities but my early sisters didn't have all the things I have now but they had no need for them.  I'm a teacher so I have a laptop I use both for school and academic studies.  The world changes... You might not know why the communities have made the decisions they have because you aren't in them yet.  Your youth is really showing when you criticize them for their beds and benefactors.  As people get older special mattresses are often a need and I bet much of the money being received from benefactors is being used to care for the dear older members of the community who have given their lives and now need to be cared for in their old age (or maybe it's for something else equally worthy).  What a scandal it would be to the faithful to see that a brother or sister was left wanting because their infirmities couldn't be cared for due to an inflexible reading of the rule which was meant to make them holy...  Just a few thoughts!

[MarysLittleFlower]

To all of us: i think it is more welcoming to a person to assume only good about them. If wanting perfection is extremist then the saints are extreme. The poster came with a struggle and did not wish to give any hints about the communities. A person who comes to make divisive posts would simply attack and maybe even name the order.

I'm just concerned about how welcoming we are as a forum if a persons first thread is met with suspicion. I think its good that Simeon is seeking thegreatest perfection. It doesn't have to be pride. It can be a grace. By all means we need to examine ourselves to make sure its not pride. But that's not our job on.the forum, that is between the soul, God and a confessor. 

[Sister Marie]

MLF, sometimes the greatest charity you can give someone is to speak the truth to them.  I see quite a bit of judgment in another way on phatmass these days and I don't want incorrect personal information or judgments of religious life to be spread.  Until one is in religious life they must realize there's a lot more to learn before they can make judgments about religious.  I'm so glad that at times my sisters have corrected me and mirrored back to me my own imperfections and incorrect attitudes so that I could grow... It might have been easier for them to let me continue in a futile and misguided direction but they helped me move towards what's most important.  We are constantly reexamining our lives and trying to grow closer to God and together we make decisions that are grounded in prayer, study, and discussion...not personal opinions.  

[AccountDeleted]

I don't think the person who is posting is phishy. Welcome to phatmass Simeon  

I also think we shouldnt see pride in his posts when we don't know him. His later posts clarify more. Wanting perfection doesn't necessarily mean seeing oneself as the holiest. 

Simeon, I'm not in your situation because I'm mostly looking at quite traditional communities with the Latin Mass but I think i understand what you mean. The religious orders were started to forsake the world and live only for God and you want this. That is a good and holy desire. I recommend speaking to a good SD just to give you peace of heart and guidance.

I can't guess what God's plan is in this but I don't think its a prideful thing - though it can be in cases. St John of the Cross was accused when he wanted to follow his Rule to perfection. Maybe God would call you to a stricter community or maybe some things would just be a cross. Other things may be a sacrifice of the will and opportunity to love the brothers. 

Its true that obedience is the greatest thing and its greater than sacrifice. A religious who eats dessert in obedience is more correct than one who disobeys to make a sacrifice. The best sacrifice is that of the will

at the same time I understanding wanting to enter community that helps to fight attachments. I don't know what communities you refer to and I agree with not mentioning them.

The only thing I thought is something that helped me one time. Maybe this is an opportunity for abandonment to you. abandon yourself to His Will where you are now, and it will be His work. Abandon especially in what is hardest to you. The true home of a religious soul is the Sacred Heart of Jesus. This is our refuge when we have no place to go to on earth. Trust and let him act I don't know if that is helpful but it comforted me at a certain time. God bless you!

People try to use St John of the Cross as an example without taking his whole life into account. It reminds me of the time I was told by someone that all Carmelite prayer should be dry, and they used St John of the Cross as an example because of his purgative way, and the Dark Night of the Soul, etc etc. Well, I happened to mention that John also wrote the Living Flame of Love and no one who wrote that poem could have ONLY experience dryness in prayer. That was written by someone who was experiencing ecstatic love.

And John may have tried to live a strict way of life, but when he was a Calced, he didn't have his family living with him but when he moved to Duruelo and was beginning the Discalced friars, he moved his family in with him. His mother and sister-in-law helped with cooking and his brother helped with manual labor. He didn't have to give up family the way a person today would if they entered a strict cloistered order.That's why we can't compare what happened back then to what happens now.

As Sr Marie said, there were no laptops or phone or electricity or even running water in some places. If a person really wants to live that life now, well, they can do what I did (because of poverty, not choice) - which is to move into a bush cabin and live without electricity or town water, or heat or refrigeration or even a toilet! But it isn't the harshness of life that makes us holy - it is the love we express for others - even in something as simple as a game of bingo during Recreation!

Sr Marie is living the life - listen to her. Dreams and ideals are great but they can be so out of touch with reality that they do lead to arrogance and spiritual pride. Until the OP has lived the life for many years, I doubt whether he has the humility to reform an Order. St John lived as a Calced Carmelite for many years before he chose to join the Reform - and he didn't found it - Teresa did, and invited him to join her. She lived for 20 years as a Calced before deciding to start the Reform. So let the OP live for 20 years in religious first, and then he can criticize or reform or do whatever it is that he feels he needs to do, with God's grace.

[Benedictus]

Simeon - Those religious who have become reformers, by and large, get to that place after long periods of prayer, discernment and years of experience in community. Sure, there are those who feel called to found a new religious institute but, even in this situation, they need the support and encouragement of the area Bishop. It can be a long, difficult and painful path. An example of this, that come to mind, was the community of Carmelte Monks, Wyoming.

However, people don't join orders to fix them. If you have that attitude then I suspect you wouldn't last through formation. There has to be signs that you are approaching things in an open, mature and honest way. During formation any problems or issues will naturally surface and I think some of the things you've said would be 'red flags' in terms of your suitability.

A rule can be very central and important. However, the constitutions of the institute express and communicate how each institute has discerned the rule should be lived out in the current time. I would advise asking to read a copy of those, if you can, as it can be very helpful. You may develop a different perspective.

It's natural that there will be aspects of the institute you don't like, such is life. But on the balance of things you need to be happy there. What would you do if you joined an order that matched all your desires and then after you take life vows they vote to change lots of the rules, externals and so on in a direction that pains you?

When you apply you have to be aware that the charism of the community, the Gospel and God are really the only constants. That should be enough to sustain you through if your vocation is really in that place. If you need other things, then well, maybe motivation is something to talk over with your SD?

 

Edited August 4, 2015 by Benedictus

[MarysLittleFlower]

Sister Marie and Nunsense - I agree it's charity to correct and that its not harshness of a life that is the most important thing but God's Will, obedience and charity. I agree with that!

Sure there are cases where something is relaxed for a reason. I'm not against recreation in community either or relaxing a rule for another out of necessity or charity.  I just didn't get the sense that the original poster wants to be a reformer. He doesn't seem to want to stand out. He maybe feels drawn to a primitive rule and doesn't know where to find it.

If there's any pride - then it should be fixed - but how would I know? I cannot read souls. I believe in just assuming the best about a soul and if the case is other, God would take care. I know your intent is charitable because you want to help. I admire this. But Simeon's reply to the first posts sounded humble and kind. I'm not saying that to give praise that might tempt to pride..  But I just don't see apparent pride.

If its there, I'm not an SD. I think its good to assume the best and if we see a flaw, to excuse the person. I want for each to be a saint. But sometimes we can see flaws that aren't there. I just can't say if there's pride or not. God knows the soul  I just don't want someone to.come to VS and open up and then feel like their motives are being analysed. The intent to.help is charitable but we really don't know this person who came to post. 

[AccountDeleted]

Sister Marie and Nunsense - I agree it's charity to correct and that its not harshness of a life that is the most important thing but God's Will, obedience and charity. I agree with that!

Sure there are cases where something is relaxed for a reason. I'm not against recreation in community either or relaxing a rule for another out of necessity or charity.  I just didn't get the sense that the original poster wants to be a reformer. He doesn't seem to want to stand out. He maybe feels drawn to a primitive rule and doesn't know where to find it.

If there's any pride - then it should be fixed - but how would I know? I cannot read souls. I believe in just assuming the best about a soul and if the case is other, God would take care. I know your intent is charitable because you want to help. I admire this. But Simeon's reply to the first posts sounded humble and kind. I'm not saying that to give praise that might tempt to pride..  But I just don't see apparent pride.

If its there, I'm not an SD. I think its good to assume the best and if we see a flaw, to excuse the person. I want for each to be a saint. But sometimes we can see flaws that aren't there. I just can't say if there's pride or not. God knows the soul  I just don't want someone to.come to VS and open up and then feel like their motives are being analysed. The intent to.help is charitable but we really don't know this person who came to post. 

Your desire to be charitable and welcoming is admirable MLF. And hopefully, the OP is humble enough to accept where God wants him to be. We all hope sincerely for that.

I think the most important thing to remember here though, is that the OP has not yet lived religious life. In fact, from what he has posted, it does not even sound as if he has done a long live-in experience. I don't know about that. He might be judging from a distance, which would be a terrible mistake on his part. There are often quite good reasons for a community to do certain things, and Sr Marie has expressed that quite clearly.

Once again, I think you are failing to actually read and respond to what is being posted. you are so eager to defend this young man - and that is so kind - that you are missing the essential points which are being made, which are: before one can judge a community, one must either live the life with them or at least visit them and then decide their lifestyle is not what is desired. Even with a Rule and a Constitutions, no two communities live out the charism of the founder in exactly the same way - and as long as the 'spirit' of the founder is present, that is what honors the charism - not the specific external details such as whether to shower or bathe, once a day or once a week, cold water or hot water etc. 

Only God know the heart and the soul, that is so true. But all we have to respond to are the words of the OP, which state that he feels that no communities are living the Rule as their founder intended. To make this kind of claim, he would have had to visit every one of the communities that follow this rule and charism or was an offshoot of the founder. I have been in more Carmelite monasteries that I care to talk about, but not one of them did things exactly the same way, even those that were started by the same foundress (and I don't mean St Teresa, I mean the woman who actually set up those communities). They had many similar rituals, traditions and customs, but communities are like individuals - they are all completely different. Their buildings are not exactly the same, their numbers of nuns are not the same, their income sources are not the same, etc. You get what I mean? So they have to develop their own responses to their individual and community needs. One community might consider Recreation a time for group discussion, another might want to play games, another might watch a DVD. The age of the members, the culture of the country, the attitudes of the Prioress - these all make a difference.

So, although we can't judge the OPs heart or soul, we can observe that he is exhibiting signs of a lack of humility in prejudging religious communities in such an all encompassing way. I say, respect the religious that we have here on Phatmass and listen to what they are saying - they are living the life. Are you? Is the OP? The OP is judging communities - so he might expect to be judged a little himself because of that- unless he can back up his judgment with experience of living the life and finding it lacking. Sorry if I sound harsh, but Sr Marie is right - too often, religious communities are getting judged. As long as they are living the life and in communion with Rome, better to listen to what they have to say, than to what someone who hasn't even visited a place says.Just saying ...

[MarysLittleFlower]

No problem at all with the suggestion to visit the communities and see!  

[Simeon]

Thank you to those who have displayed great charity. And to those who have responded harshly based on false assumptions, thank you for a moment of humility. I actually have lived in community and have visited 5 other religious communities for periods longer than 4 days, some for weeks. I am truly greatful for the advice and edifying responses, but I'll conclude on here since I seem to have given some sort out of scandal. God bless y'all. And please pray for my discernment.

PS. I would admonish us all to take the advice of MLF for responding to those seeking honest help.

[MarysLittleFlower]

I hope you stay Simeon! Whatever you choose God bless you in your discernment I'm discerning too and its not fun but let us adore God's Will in every thing. 

[AccountDeleted]

Thank you to those who have displayed great charity. And to those who have responded harshly based on false assumptions, thank you for a moment of humility. I actually have lived in community and have visited 5 other religious communities for periods longer than 4 days, some for weeks. I am truly greatful for the advice and edifying responses, but I'll conclude on here since I seem to have given some sort out of scandal. God bless y'all. And please pray for my discernment.

PS. I would admonish us all to take the advice of MLF for responding to those seeking honest help.

Well, if I erred about your source of judging the religious communities, I apologise, but I do wonder exactly what help you wanted from us? To affirm your conviction that there are no good or holy communities? I am still not sure what the whole point of your OP was unless it was just to vent because you are frustrated that you can't find a community where you feel 'at home'. If this is the case, then I am sure we can sympathise. It isn't easy to find where one feels most truly comfortable, but then perhaps that isn't the point of religious life either. Perhaps the point is to get the rough edges knocked off by being in a place that isn't perfect? Just a thought.

Good luck in your search.

 

[Gabriela]

To all of us: i think it is more welcoming to a person to assume only good about them. If wanting perfection is extremist then the saints are extreme. The poster came with a struggle and did not wish to give any hints about the communities. A person who comes to make divisive posts would simply attack and maybe even name the order.

I'm just concerned about how welcoming we are as a forum if a persons first thread is met with suspicion. I think its good that Simeon is seeking thegreatest perfection. It doesn't have to be pride. It can be a grace. By all means we need to examine ourselves to make sure its not pride. But that's not our job on.the forum, that is between the soul, God and a confessor. 

His first post wasn't judged. It was later posts that suggested that maybe—this being a new member who out of the blue immediately posts a condemnatory comment—he's here to start a flame war. It wouldn't be the first time in the last few months. We've had a plague of them. I'm just being vigilant.

I also think that it's good that a person seek the greatest perfection. But seeking your own perfection by judging others whose life you don't know is not humble. And that's not anyone's perfection.

Quite a few people have explained this to Simeon, but he kept responding in the vein. Remember, MLF: Veteran VSers aren't the only ones reading in here. People lurk all the time. It's important to call out erroneous views of RL when they're presented, so that lurkers and passers-by don't get the idea from our silence that we all think they're correct.

I tried to be gentle in pointing out that this might be a phishy thread so as not to make Simeon feel unwelcome if he is genuine. And if he is, then I certainly hope he'll stay! (We have a real dearth of men in here!)

Simeon - Those religious who have become reformers, by and large, get to that place after long periods of prayer, discernment and years of experience in community. Sure, there are those who feel called to found a new religious institute but, even in this situation, they need the support and encouragement of the area Bishop. It can be a long, difficult and painful path. An example of this, that come to mind, was the community of Carmelte Monks, Wyoming.

However, people don't join orders to fix them. If you have that attitude then I suspect you wouldn't last through formation. There has to be signs that you are approaching things in an open, mature and honest way. During formation any problems or issues will naturally surface and I think some of the things you've said would be 'red flags' in terms of your suitability.

A rule can be very central and important. However, the constitutions of the institute express and communicate how each institute has discerned the rule should be lived out in the current time. I would advise asking to read a copy of those, if you can, as it can be very helpful. You may develop a different perspective.

It's natural that there will be aspects of the institute you don't like, such is life. But on the balance of things you need to be happy there. What would you do if you joined an order that matched all your desires and then after you take life vows they vote to change lots of the rules, externals and so on in a direction that pains you?

When you apply you have to be aware that the charism of the community, the Gospel and God are really the only constants. That should be enough to sustain you through if your vocation is really in that place. If you need other things, then well, maybe motivation is something to talk over with your SD? 

^ This. 100%.

Thank you to those who have displayed great charity. And to those who have responded harshly based on false assumptions, thank you for a moment of humility. I actually have lived in community and have visited 5 other religious communities for periods longer than 4 days, some for weeks. I am truly greatful for the advice and edifying responses, but I'll conclude on here since I seem to have given some sort out of scandal. God bless y'all. And please pray for my discernment.

PS. I would admonish us all to take the advice of MLF for responding to those seeking honest help.

Simeon, you have not given scandal. We're just trying to balance out your OP for people who may not be that familiar with RL and so, in coming across it, might think that all communities have gone off the rails.

I hope you'll stick around. I have thought of leaving Phatmass many times, but often told myself: "If I want to live life in a religious community, I need to be able to stick with it through good times and bad. If I can't even deal with the hard times on Phatmass, I'm not going to cut it in RL!" This place is very much a community, and I think you'll find putting up with people on here a good practice for RL!