Effeminacy: "The Forgotten Vice in Seminary Formation"

[Gabriela]

In 2006, this article came out in the HPR. It was published again as a reprint this past Sunday. It argues that effeminacy is a vice that is all too common in seminaries. I'm posting it in the Debate Table because I expect it will raise some eyebrows.

http://www.hprweb.com/2015/07/the-forgotten-vice-in-seminary-formation/

Try not to blow up the internet, ppl.

[veritasluxmea]

A year ago I think I would have disagreed with the author, but after the experiences I've had in this diocese in the past year I'm not sure I would now. 

Understanding of the difference between effeminacy and affective maturity is important before having a knee-jerk reaction to this topic. I think his article can basically be summarized in this paragraph: 

I have five sisters, and all are feminine, but I would describe none of them as effeminate or soft.  They are women; yet, they do not exhibit this particular vice.  So, it must be understood, I am not putting down women or speaking on homosexuality, (though effeminacy is often a sign of this sexual disorder) but rather on acting in an inappropriate manner that is often prevalent in seminaries.

[MarysLittleFlower]

I fear for your thread... Yes let's try not blow up the internet

Edited August 3, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower

[Nihil Obstat]

Also one has to keep in mind the difference between femininity and effeminacy.

[MarysLittleFlower]

I think its a good article... 

I'm happy to say none of the priests at my parish are effeminate in any way and they seem very well formed

I totally agree with this point and it's something that gets debated A LOT but I think its true. 

Quote:

St. Thomas also speaks on modesty concerning the outward movements of the body.  Here, he quotes Saint Ambrose in stating that, “Beauty of conduct consists in becoming behavior towards others, according to their sex and person.”  Thomas states that, “Outward movements are a sign of the inward disposition” and quotes Ecclesiastics 19:29-30, “You can tell a person by his appearance … the way a person dresses, the way he laughs, the way he walks, tell you what he is.”  St. Ambrose adds that, “The habit of mind is seen in the gesture of the body,” and that “the body’s movement is an index of the soul.”  Ambrose goes on to say, “Let nature guide the movement: if nature fail in any respect, surely effort will supply the defect.” 

There seems to be a popular view that we can do anything externally because only the internal matters. No God made us soul and body. What we do with the body affects the soul. The visible is also a sign and expression of the invisible. That's why there are differences with men and women, why everything about us should be ordered - and this helps spiritually. Like for example modesty expresses the interior purity and also protects it. Regarding seminarians I think maybe giving them cassocks to wear might help put them in a state of mind of seriousness and piety. As well as making sure their life is well ordered including free time. 

[Luigi]

Regarding seminarians I think maybe giving them cassocks to wear might help put them in a state of mind of seriousness and piety. As well as making sure their life is well ordered including free time. 

Right - put them in the closest thing to dresses you can find, and that will make them less effeminate. 

[MarysLittleFlower]

Right - put them in the closest thing to dresses you can find, and that will make them less effeminate. 

Cassocks don't remind me of dresses. Also the priests I know who wear cassocks are the furthest thing from effeminate. I think cassocks and vestments are good because they give an impression of piety, as they are different from the world. It makes it all more serious not less.  

[Gabriela]

A (habited) nun once said to me that the gravest error in the thinking of those sisters who threw off the habit was not that they assumed they no longer needed the habit to show the world they were nuns, but that they completely disregarded the import of the habit for reminding themselves that they were nuns.

[MarysLittleFlower]

I would agree with those who would say that the heart and interior is more crucial. Yes it is. But I think the exterior can help it and also express it. Exterior stuff for show is like Pharisees. A well ordered life that harmonizes interior and exterior is not.

The interior is still the aim but the exterior is utilized, not ignored or turned to another purpose.

That's the reason for all the stuff like dressing a certain way or acting a certain way.

Its a way to involve the whole person while still focusing on the heart and true virtue. Yes it can become shallow but the opposite error of neglecting order doesn't help.

I think the key is putting the interior first but using every detail in life for that. 

Edited August 3, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower

[Gabriela]

I would agree with those who would say that the heart and interior is more crucial. Yes it is. But I think the exterior can help it and also express it. Exterior stuff for show is like Pharisees. A well ordered life that harmonizes interior and exterior is not.

The interior is still the aim but the exterior is utilized not ignored or turned to another purpose. 

I agree entirely.

[SilverSeminarian]

Right - put them in the closest thing to dresses you can find, and that will make them less effeminate. 

It actually does. Putting on a cassock is very humbling and helps you realize the severity of the vocation. I feel more a man when I have a cassock on than I do anywhere else. It's my way of showing the world that I am a person of God and I love it.

[Nihil Obstat]

Across many times and many cultures, the men with the greatest authority and who command the most respect tend to wear some form of a skirt. Cassocks, judge's robes, the hakama, etc..

[Maggyie]

One time I complimented a young priest on wearing his cassock around the parish. He said "I know, aren't the lines of a cassock so much more ELEGANT?" And proceeded to tell me about this Paris fashion designer who had his models in cassock-like clothes on the cat walk. He was otherwise a normal dude but that threw me. 

Basically any any priest who is overly interested in aesthetic things (dress,  whether he has a beard, how he does his hair) comes off as a Metro for lack of a better word. Also the ones who are interested in lacey things. There's no reason for a man to know the type of lace he prefers on his vestments (or even to know he prefers lace, period). Makes him sound like he works in a bridal salon. Leave the clerical fashion to Mrs Sacristan. 

[Gabriela]

The manliest priest in our diocese is a huge fan of lace. I don't see how lace on a clerical garment is any indication of a man's degree of "Metro-ness".

Now, lace on his street clothes is another matter.

[vee]

Thanks for sharing that article and my prayers for that priest for speaking up, and that the issue be dealt with!  We need quality over quantity, and we need well rounded men as priests.  As he states in teh article part of the issues lies with formation staff being able to recognize and deal with the issue.  Unfortunately in my diocese I am aware that the vocations director, who is a priest, is homosexual so how will that affect things when young men discerning a call to the priesthood go to him for direction?  I should add I know of which I accuse him because things psoted on his social media before he realized the privacy settings!  Anyway would his  issues drive away the well rounded young men who go to him?  Perhaps so and it needs to be remedied.