Should Catholics Get Tattooed?

[MarysLittleFlower]

St. Thomas said women shouldn't drink because they are mentally weaker than men. I've roundly ignored that little bit of advice. Seeing as the early fathers debated whether or not women even have souls it's not the most insulting thing I've heard, but when you tell about half the Catholics they shouldn't drink, well, you're not gonna have a good time..

We should listen to the saints sure, but not everything. Like someone else said they often contradict each other on the non-essentials.

What say you about self-mutilation as it pertains to traditional penitential acts?

There's what Catlick just said - I haven't looked at that issue though. But that doesn't change at all what I think about makeup for several reasons. One is: even IF one thing a Saint says is inaccurate doesn't mean other things they say should be doubted  just because they are controversial. I'd much rather believe the Saints than the norms of our society... I mean just look around. We're not living in a society that knows God.

Secondly there is my own journey. I usually don't talk about this but maybe I'll say if it would clarify more. Before I read anything against makeup or even thought about the issue, I felt strongly convicted to not wear makeup several times in prayer. One time was totally unexpected and the other time was almost right after my Total Consecration to Our Lady.

Im not saying I'm special or holier for this as I wore truly a lot of makeup and was attached to it. So nothing to boast of and it was God's Mercy. It seemed to clear for doubt but I am not infallible so I know I can't convince anyone by this alone. Its just my own experience and I know our experiences can be fallible, I just decided to make an act of trust. But when I read those quotes from the Saints they had a strong effect on me.. This was later and I believe God used them to finally convince me. It took years.

The quote that did it for me was the revelation from Jesus to a Saint where He said He didn't want people painting their faces to be more beautiful than how He made them. That struck me so deeply because I saw the vanity in what I was doing.

So I realise that maybe 99.9 percent of people would disagree with me but in the end I chose to just trust the Saints and my relationship with Jesus - though I often have fear and distrust myself with such things. But it seems more sensible to me than going with popular opinion. I know I can't convince anyone, this has just been my journey. I don't know why. I didn't have any revelations just my conscience.

As for the penitential acts - I'm not sure where you are getting that they are about self mutilation because the spiritual directors of all ages counselled against this and said to do it prudently just for slight pain or discomfort. Some Saints did do more but stopped if they were told to stop. This shows the werent prideful.

But they did this because they were carried away with an extremely strong love for Jesus.. There seems to be a stage in the spiritual life where people do allsorts of things that seem extreme because they no longer know how to express their love for God and desire to share in His suffering. Out of that desire the Saints did things that seemed extreme - some with permission and others without at first asking but stopped if asked to stop.

However the reason I put this in a different category is because - it was not out of vanity or some earthly desire. And some things were with permission. As for those that were too much - they stopped when ordered to. Anyway that's just my understanding about penances and maybe I got something wrong. I don't think we should ruin the body. But not all things like that ruin it.

As for leaving a mark on the body - in some cases its maybe not right in others God wants it like stigmata and other miracles or if something is permitted. If someone makes a mistake with a good intent they often get corrected. But makeup is worn for an earthly reason not as an act of love for God and often it can be vain so there are differences. 

[Seven77]

 

As for leaving a mark on the body - in some cases its maybe not right in others God wants it like stigmata and other miracles or if something is permitted. If someone makes a mistake with a good intent they often get corrected. But makeup is worn for an earthly reason not as an act of love for God and often it can be vain so there are differences. 

 

Funny, I've read quotes of Saints saying that women should wear makeup/ adorn themselves for their husbands. It can be worn as an act of love for God, and is not necessarily a vain action. It is definitely not intrinsically evil or the Church would have made an official statement about it somewhere. 

[MarysLittleFlower]

I think it all comes down to intention. What are we intending when we do this, that, or the other thing? When someone gets a tattoo, are they intending to win the praise of others, showcase "art" in a misguided way (the human body is not an art gallery) or advertise themselves, etc, or are they intending to remind themselves of God, or hiding a burn or mark that they were not born with, or enhancing their human dignity, etc? Accordingly, it may or may not be sinful. And, because it was brought up, I think that it similar kind of reasoning applies to makeup… in fact, it applies to everything that we do.

i think that often people get tattoos as a form of "self expression" which I think isn't a good motive. Same with makeup often its to look prettier.

St Thomas says its different if you're covering up a disfigurement or illness. (Though personally I think there's nothing wrong with not using it then either). In my case I wore makeup cause I didn't like how I looked like and that can go into being ungrateful to God or vanity.

The whole intention thing is why I think some Saints were allowed to do things that alter the body but for a spiritual reason, though if something was ruining the body or harming health or disfiguring it they were asked to stop. They stopped and I don't believe we should ruin the body. But in those cases they didn't even sin by disobedience because they listened to their director when told no, and their motives were from a good desire even if there was some mistake. If a mistake happened they werecorrected and stopped.

That sort of humble learning attitude while just trying to love God and learning how - itsdifferent to me than how makeup gets worn. I don't mean wearing it after an injury but to enhance eyes with eyeliner. To me that doesn't seem like something done out of love for God. The intent may not be really vain - like wanting to look more like others, look groomed etc - and that does matter, but I don't think it makes me agree with makeup. Thats because the whole purpose of makeup is not to please God and I think a less vain intent makes it less serious but doesn't orient the whole thing to serving God.

In other words if makeup is wrong in its purpose of existence - which is to change God's creation (the face) for beauty, then less vain intentions can excuse a person more but not excuse the existence of makeup itself. Its very existence is vain and not neutral like existence of paper or furniture or other stuff around us.  

Jewellery however gets allowed by St Thomas in cases if it doesn't cause vanity or distract from a vocation, maybe because it doesn't actually alter how God made us rather it works the same as adorning clothing. This is just my undertanding.. 

[AccountDeleted]

And if we're talking about the body as a temple - let's consider one of the most beautiful Christian 'temples' of all time - and how Michelangelo 'adorned' it with his 'tattoo' - the Sistine Chapel!  

Sure,some people are offended by tattoos but then different people are offended by different things. It is certainly respectful to cover up tattoos where necessary and appropriate depending on time, place and circumstance, but then could be said of quite a few things. One wouldn't wear a swimsuit in a formal environment and sometimes language needs to be more formal depending on the situation. It all comes back down to common sense. 

As for trusting our relationship with Jesus to make our choices - that's a good one and I agree with it 100%. But your relationship with Jesus is not my relationship with Jesus, nor is it anyone else's. So if I feel that wearing makeup can be appropriate in certain circumstances, I am not going to get all scrupulous about what some saint said hundreds of years ago. MLF, it sounds like you had a problem with makeup and vanity (from what you write), so sure, maybe you shouldn't wear it ever - but that's like telling everyone they can't drink simply because you are an alcoholic, or telling everyone they shouldn't watch TV, because you get addicted to it and don't get anything productive done. A lot of us can do things in moderation and with common sense applied.

Time, place and situation - and Jesus is fine with it - as far as my own private and personal revelations go!  But then I have quite a few years under my belt so maybe I don't take things quite as seriously as some other people do. All I know is that God and I are ok.

 

 

[Nihil Obstat]

And if we're talking about the body as a temple - let's consider one of the most beautiful Christian 'temples' of all time - and how Michelangelo 'adorned' it with his 'tattoo' - the Sistine Chapel!  

 

That is kind of a tortured comparison. 

[AccountDeleted]

That is kind of a tortured comparison. 

 

Well, the whole body is a temple so people shouldn't get tattoos or wear makeup is pretty tortured too - so we work with what we are given! LOL 

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

Unsure how st thomas can put jewelry and make up in a separate basket, if he did? Make ups a funny thing because i guess if the world is in a fallen state than perhaps we do not look how God intended us to, particularly after the point where we choose to sin with full knowledge and consent and still to a degree without knowledge and consent sin effects not only our emotional, mental and spiritual state of life but also our physical perhaps, and light make up may not actually be vain but just magnifying and repairing that which is supposed to be, of course if one goes overboard it can be some kind of self hate thing which is not good, although i am not promoting pride of self. Not saying my synopsis is correct but just another possible view point, and of course not all have to eat apples although apples are good in the sense that even where make up a good and wholesome thing not all are bound to where it, as not all are bound or have the ability for whatever reason to do the rosary daily and some cant do lengthy novenas and only can manage the very basics without fault, sorry not meaning to compare make up to a novena but if done correctly in the light of christ i guess just about anything can be made holy, like having your car, house blessed once a year. I guess one could get there make up blessed after wearing in the hope that there make up may attract a soul for Christ to be evangelized.

Edited August 2, 2015 by Tab'le De'Bah-Rye

[MarysLittleFlower]

Funny, I've read quotes of Saints saying that women should wear makeup/ adorn themselves for their husbands. It can be worn as an act of love for God, and is not necessarily a vain action. It is definitely not intrinsically evil or the Church would have made an official statement about it somewhere. 

all the quotes I read like this seemed to only be speaking of jewellery or nice clothes rather than makeup. For example St Thomas says a woman CAN adorn herself for her husband but then in another part says even married women shouldn't wear makeup. So by adornment I think he means jewellery. He was pretty strict with makeup and the question he deals with is if its mortal or venial - not whether its OK or not. In the best cases he seemed to imply its venial. The only thing he gave as an excuse where its OK to do is to cover up some disfigurement. Intent DOES matter here which is why it can be a very slight thing at times - but I think its good to aim at perfection if its venial that's still serious. If its an imperfection best to get rid of it. 

[AccountDeleted]

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/cw/post.php?id=737 

 

I like this article - and this quote...

“And when you fast, do not look gloomy like the hypocrites, for they disfigure their faces that their fasting may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face, that your fasting may not be seen by others but by your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you.”

And I especially like her conclusion at the end...

And so I come to a close on an article I shouldn’t have had to write in the first place. The idea that something like make-up, which not only encourages daily habits in personal care but could also potentially help our physical appearance in matters of evangelization, be anything like the commenter implies is, frankly, just silly. And it points to the greater point that we tend, even with the best of intentions, to assume insecurities and faults in others that aren’t there to begin with. Perhaps it is a great reminder that we must simply worry about our own journeys and less about what I assume to be God’s judgment on another.

 

 

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

Unsure anyone should be scandalized by others wearing make up though, that could actually be a kind of scruples, but i guess the same as tatts, dont hang out with someone that is scandalized by make up wearing make up. idk. Don't offer someone that doesn't like to eat meat meat, definitely. And perhaps don't eat meat around them, i'm unsure where the line is in all of this but we must respect others right to like or dislike something and try our best in st pauls words to become all things to all people.

[Seven77]

all the quotes I read like this seemed to only be speaking of jewellery or nice clothes rather than makeup. For example St Thomas says a woman CAN adorn herself for her husband but then in another part says even married women shouldn't wear makeup. So by adornment I think he means jewellery. He was pretty strict with makeup and the question he deals with is if its mortal or venial - not whether its OK or not. In the best cases he seemed to imply its venial. The only thing he gave as an excuse where its OK to do is to cover up some disfigurement. Intent DOES matter here which is why it can be a very slight thing at times - but I think its good to aim at perfection if its venial that's still serious. If its an imperfection best to get rid of it. 

Not to get all up in your business or anything like that but what does your spiritual director say about this? I think that this may be a matter to discuss with a spiritual director... and follow this person's advice, because this is the way that Christ sometimes speaks to us.  Also, have you asked St. Thomas Aquinas about it?

[MarysLittleFlower]

Some thoughts only. In the end isn't anything not for God vanity?  He wants all our attention, every thought and action. That's how total His love is. If an action is not to please Him - its imperfect even if its not some big sin. It can also lead to bigger sin and lots of attachment. This is something I struggle with every day. Many things I do are still for myself. Makeup definitely was. But if we are serious in becoming saints let's do everything only for His love!  Holiness is in His Will alone not ours even in the tiny details.

I'm not judging anyone here - it applies to me just as much, I fail maybe more than others, but I mean it as an encouragement not a judgement - its beautiful to only live for Jesus and I have to learn this as much or more than others.

Makeup was something I did to feel better about myself because I had little gratitude for how God made me. I wanted to fix things I didn't like instead of seeing through His eyes or using them to learn detachment. I was painting over the eyes He gave me so others would like me more or be more impressed; so I'd fit in. What about Jesus? How did He feel seeing my ingratitude for a face He made? 

That was not something holy to do. Now I have to work on all the other things I do that are not holy andtheyre a big number  so I understand no one is obligated to listen to me and who am I to teach? 

Ifpeople disagree I understand because I have no authority to teach anyone here. I just mean it as an encouragement. I know it can be a big sacrifice for women especially today when its so common. I struggled for a while feeling very ugly when I stopped wearing it.  I felt different at work cause I didn't look as polished as others. But I think that's only by comparison. If I found myself in an age where ordinary women didn't wear makeup I'd look the same. So what I do is I just make sure I'm dressed nearly and my hair is done neatly.. It was sometimes a sacrifice to be content with that but now I'm so used to it I don't notice. It only seems scary at first  

I'm just saying all this if someone wants to give it up but is worried. That was a big issue for me. But really I think people are beautiful with the natural God-given look and any imperfections can be for humility or to avoid vanity. Even imperfections are a gift from God to keep the soul beautiful. 

If I wear makeup in that case that's missing out on that opportunity to learn humility , detachment and gratitude for what I have. I feel more peace without makeup now and I save tons of time and money too  that's my story lol. 

Somehow this thread got derailed - my fault cause I mentioned makeup - lets get back to discussing tattoos and I won't post on this anymore  

Edited August 2, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower

[Ice_nine]

Looks like you get your information from the Church's enemies... That the early Church Fathers debated over whether women have souls, is a complete lie: http://www.churchinhistory.org/pages/booklets/women-souls-1.htm

OK, I was WRONG. D': My world is OVER.

I'm actually glad that's not true, but I'm definitely right about the St. Thomas thing. So I can salvage something.

[AccountDeleted]

Maybe ALL Catholics should be tattooed - with the words: "Make-up is bad" ?? 

 

 

[MarysLittleFlower]

And if we're talking about the body as a temple - let's consider one of the most beautiful Christian 'temples' of all time - and how Michelangelo 'adorned' it with his 'tattoo' - the Sistine Chapel!  

Sure,some people are offended by tattoos but then different people are offended by different things. It is certainly respectful to cover up tattoos where necessary and appropriate depending on time, place and circumstance, but then could be said of quite a few things. One wouldn't wear a swimsuit in a formal environment and sometimes language needs to be more formal depending on the situation. It all comes back down to common sense. 

As for trusting our relationship with Jesus to make our choices - that's a good one and I agree with it 100%. But your relationship with Jesus is not my relationship with Jesus, nor is it anyone else's. So if I feel that wearing makeup can be appropriate in certain circumstances, I am not going to get all scrupulous about what some saint said hundreds of years ago. MLF, it sounds like you had a problem with makeup and vanity (from what you write), so sure, maybe you shouldn't wear it ever - but that's like telling everyone they can't drink simply because you are an alcoholic, or telling everyone they shouldn't watch TV, because you get addicted to it and don't get anything productive done. A lot of us can do things in moderation and with common sense applied.

Time, place and situation - and Jesus is fine with it - as far as my own private and personal revelations go!  But then I have quite a few years under my belt so maybe I don't take things quite as seriously as some other people do. All I know is that God and I are ok.

 

 

Certainly there are things I felt Jesus wanted for me and me specifically. I don't talkabout those things much or at all. Iwondered if its the same with makeup but then Ifound those quotes. My idea maybeis that the purpose of the existence of makeup is not like purpose of other stuff. Is itfundamentally flawed? I gave reasons I thought about in my post just above this one.

Jewellery doesn't change the actual features and intent determines if its vain. Intent matters in makeup but I wonder if as an invention its flawed. Thatwould mean intentions may excuse someone from terrible vanity in the heart but wouldnt excuse makeup itself. I also notice lots of hidden vanity in me in little things i make excuses for.

My reasons about disagreeing with makeup itself are given above - I don't know but its just what I felt in my heart. No one is obligated to listen to me clearly.I take the Saints more serious. But just for further thought I shared them  

Not to get all up in your business or anything like that but what does your spiritual director say about this? I think that this may be a matter to discuss with a spiritual director... and follow this person's advice, because this is the way that Christ sometimes speaks to us.  Also, have you asked St. Thomas Aquinas about it?

im unsure what you mean because I just described basically what we already have from St Thomas in the Summa. This isn't a revelation to me from St Thomas

my SD said its not always a serious sin because a person may have varying levels of vanity but St Thomas said that too and I agree. I am not saying its always a mortal sin. It doesn't mean its a perfection or great thing! As for my journey, I tell my SD these things too.