Why Is The Vatican So Accepting Of Islam?

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Budge' date='Jun 15 2004, 10:53 AM'] Disagree with all of those but this one especially...

[b]843
The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332[/b]

The message is inherently that all false religions lead to God....even if in error. Basic Universalism 101.

[/quote]
Wrong.
It does not say that at all. Your conclusiion is not supported by the text.

[1337 k4th0l1x0r]

Budge, I think that you don't understand the way that Catholics preach the Gospel. As a Baptist, your main method of preaching is most likely witnessing, so telling someone how you feel about God and what is in the Bible is how you see bringing someone into the Christian faith. Am I right?

Catholics believe that the best method of preaching is through living a life of faith and letting your love of God show in you. If people see how happy and loving you are as a Christian, others will want to know about Jesus. Even Blessed Mother Teresa, who even some non-Catholics agree was a saint in her time, did not focus on preaching bible verses to the people dying of AIDS. Her ministry was entirely founded upon "These sick people need someone to care for them and be with them, let's do that because the bible tells us that we should."

As St. Francis said, "Preach the Gospel throughout the world, and if necessary, use words."

[jasJis]

[quote name='Budge' date='Jun 15 2004, 08:53 AM'] Disagree with all of those but this one especially...

[b]843
The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332[/b]

.....


Deu 12:32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: [b]thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it. [/b]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [/quote]
Budge,

Quite simple really. When you realize the Church is the Fullness of Truth, you realize that the Chuch cannot deny the partial and/or mis-understood Truths of God Himslef that mankind recognizes through Grace in other religions.

When Jesus rode to Jerusalem with a path strewn with branches, what was his response to those who told Jesus to quiet the crowds who shouted Jesus' glory as the King? Jesus said that if he quieted the people, the very rocks would shout in glory. Who preached to the rocks? Nobody preached to the rocks, the rocks possessed the grace of God, given in their creation by their Creator, the inability to repress the Glory of God.

God is All That is Good, the Sole Creator, the Unique Omnipotent Being. We, and all existence, is created and kept in existence simply because God wills His Glory to become manifest. Mankind is created with freewill and is created with inherent Grace to recognize and seek Good (God) as well as the ability to reject Good (God) and choose evil. Knowledge of God is not limited to what mankind tells one another.

The Catholic Church cannot deny the Truth of the Glory of God and is obligated to acknowledge what other religions, non-Chrisians, etc., find and recognize. It obligates Catholics (all Christians) to spread the Word to increase and better the knowledge and bring them closer to the Fullness of Truth. It's not 'Universalism 101' as you claim, in the sense it's a diminshement of the Perfect Essense of the Truth of God. It's 'Omnipotent and Sole Creator of All, (Remedial Studies)'.

[Guest JeffCR07]

Budge, honestly...sometimes...

Allow me to clarify a little bit of the Church's teachings on how Catholicism relates to other religions:

The simple existence of an Old Testament and a New Testament, really, is all that one needs to logically prove the stance of the Catholic Church. In the existence of the Old and New Testaments, it is clear that God revealed himself to mankind slowly and deliberately. The new testament is a fullfillment of the Old Testament, it doesn't throw it away. So what can we say about Judaism? We can say that the Jews "know" God, and he is the [i]same[/i] God, they simply do not know him in the fullness of revelation.

So what about other Religions?

It is obvious that mankind has an innate tendency towards religion, but that doesn't mean that we all end up in the same place.

Like the Jews, other religions have some degree of Truth, though they differ in how close they come (Even Taoism believes in eternity, though they don't understand that God IS Eternity).

If you want to believe that other religions are twisted and controlled by the devil, fine, you might even be right. But Satan cannot undo what God has done, and in even the most vile twisting of religion, the Source, God, can be found.

So what do we do with these religions that don't have the fullness of Truth?

We [i]talk[/i] to them. We [i]teach[/i] them. We [i]help[/i] them, that they may come into the fullness of Christ.

And that isn't an easy thing. Christ's teachings are hard. Patience is necessary. We can't convert people by just jumping on top of them and forcing it. And the Holy Father knows this.

When the Bishops speak of interpreting scripture together, that makes PERFECT sense. By looking at what they have, and what we have, we can show them where their teaching is right and where it is wrong, and we can explain [i]why[/i]

You spoke of evangelising to them. That is exactly what this is. Evangelism, spreading Christ's good news, is LOVE, not slapping someone like a red-headed stepchild just because they happen to be wrong about something.

It really isn't that hard....

[ironmonk]

It is NOT universalism, and it does NOT say that all lead to God.

Don't be lazy.
GO to the link and get the whole picture of the teaching.
STUDY STUDY STUDY.

If you would have went to the link and actually read the page, you would have seen the below.

You CANNOT make a sound judgement on partial information. NO ONE can.


[i]"Outside the Church there is no salvation"[/i]

[b]846 [/b]
How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:


Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336


[b]847 [/b]
This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:


Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation.337


[b]848 [/b]
"Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338


-------------------------------------------------------------




Ignorance is not bliss... you don't have to be ignorant, you can study and learn.


God Bless,
ironmonk

Edited June 15, 2004 by ironmonk

[Norseman82]

1) In the second chapter of Romans Paul refers to the law that is written in our hearts. This is also known as the "natural law".

2) In Acts 17 Paul used the statue dedicated to the "unknown God" as an opening to preach Christ. Some people became believers as a result.

[yiannii]

Does anyone know where in the Bible it talks about how we as Christians are the yeast in the dough? I can't find it but I think it would fit in well with this discussion.
Another quote where we are referred to as the light of the world and the salt of the earth....

[ironmonk]

[quote name='yiannii' date='Jun 16 2004, 09:43 AM'] Does anyone know where in the Bible it talks about how we as Christians are the yeast in the dough? I can't find it but I think it would fit in well with this discussion.
Another quote where we are referred to as the light of the world and the salt of the earth....  [/quote]
Light of the earth and salt of the world refered to the Church. Like a city on a moutain for all to see - St. Matt 5:13-15.

The yeast in the dough thing is in Galatians... all the letters where written to the fathers of the Churches in those areas... not to every single Christian, though we all may learn from the letters, they were written to the fathers about teaching us laymen.


God Bless,
ironmonk


PS...
Another thing to note that when the letters of the New Testament were written, it was one long letter. They were not in chapters and verses. That came much later.

Edited June 16, 2004 by ironmonk

[Guest JeffCR07]

yea, thats definately a good thing to keep in the back of your mind when you read scripture

[Guest JeffCR07]

cuz reading it in context adds so much depth: It just proves that the word of God can never be taken on just one level: there's always so much more too it if you just look deeper

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Budge' date='Jun 15 2004, 08:23 AM']If paul had followed this example--he would have sat down for a rap session with the Athenians and they would have gotten him to take their holy writings home....

Sigh....[/quote]
As far as we know St. Paul didn't take home from the Areopagus any writings of the classical Greeks, but we do know that he was already quite familiar with those writings. We know this because while he was speaking to the men of Athens about Christ, he quoted Epimenides' poem [i][u]Cretica[/u][/i] and said, "For in Him we live and move and have our being," [cf., Acts 17:28a] and then he went on and quoted another text from a pagan, i.e., Aratus’ [i][u]Phaenomena[/u][/i], when he said "For we are indeed His offspring." [cf., Acts 17:28b] What this shows is that St. Paul, unlike modern day Fundamentalists, was not averse to quoting texts that were important to the men with whom he was speaking. He used the truths that those men already knew about God in order to speak to them about Christ, with the hope of course, of bringing them to faith in Jesus and to the fulness of truth that can be found only in Him. But I suppose that St. Paul shouldn't have done that; instead, he should have told the men of Athens that they were all evil and in error, and that only by rejecting the truths that they already knew, could they possibly be saved. Well, I guess it's a good thing that St. Paul wasn't a Fundamentalist.

[Guest JeffCR07]

Apotheoun...I...good job. Thats all I can say. I had no idea Paul was quoting those texts. Thanks.

[Budge]

HEy nothing wrong with quoting their own poems and such...I have a friend who is Unitarian Universalist, I talk to her about the nature of god, what UU believe etc.....

the difference is[b] that PAUL WENT ON TO PREACH THE GOSPEL.[/b]

I have been studying the interfaith movement a LONG time.

I have yet to see Christ preached at any of these interfaith activities. The message is always "You already know god" "Please pray to your gods" "Let us learn more about your religion"

I have never seen any witnessing done whatsoever.

IN fact [b]prolestyzation or any witnessing is OUTLAWED[/b] at many of these events including the Popes. HERE IS A QUESTION, WHEN DID THE POPE TELL THE PEOPLE OF FALSE RELIGIONS DIRECTLY ABOUT JESUS CHRIST? HE HAD THEM PRAY TO THEIR FALSE GODS INSTEAD!

[url="http://www.vatican.va/news_services/liturgy/documents/ns_lit_doc_20020124_assisi_en.html"]http://www.vatican.va/news_services/liturg..._assisi_en.html[/url]

[quote]He added that it was his intention "to invite representatives of the religions of the world to come to Assisi on 24 January 2002 in order to pray for an end to hostilities and the advancement of true peace".2[/quote]

Why would any Christian sanction prayer to false gods?

THis is directly from the Vatican website, including a pic of a VERY UNITARIAN-UNIVERSALIST like chalice. In UU churches at our services we would light a chalice. The little chalices say it all to an ex-Unitarian Universalist who had the Holy Spirit take her out of Satan lies.

[url="http://www.vatican.va/news_services/liturgy/documents/ns_lit_doc_20020124_assisi-giornata_en.html"]http://www.vatican.va/news_services/liturg...iornata_en.html[/url]

The words are very close to Alice Bailey's Great Invocation

[quote]Violence never again!
War never again!
Terrorism never again!
[b]In God's name,
may all religions bring upon earth
justice and peace,
forgiveness, life and love![/b][/quote]

Here the Vatican shows itself for the universalists they are. Thsoe who are in Christ, know that false religions bring destruction, bondage and have no hope of peace.

Places for prayers:

[quote].        Places set aside for prayer

-        Lower Basilica:        Christians

-        Sacred Convent:     

Room A          Islam
Room B          Buddhism
Room C          Sikhism 
Room D          African Traditional Religions
Room E          Hinduism
Room F          Tenrikyo
Room G          Shintoism
Room H          Judaism
Room I            Zoroastrianism, Janinism and Confucianism [/quote]

[b]DONT MISS THE PICS[/b]

[url="http://www.vatican.va/news_services/liturgy/documents/travels/assisi9.html"]http://www.vatican.va/news_services/liturg...ls/assisi9.html[/url]

[url="http://www.vatican.va/news_services/liturgy/documents/travels/assisi7.html"]http://www.vatican.va/news_services/liturg...ls/assisi7.html[/url]

[url="http://www.vatican.va/news_services/liturgy/documents/travels/assisi8.html"]http://www.vatican.va/news_services/liturg...ls/assisi8.html[/url]

This one has the Vooduns with libations for the spirits included.

[url="http://www.vatican.va/news_services/liturgy/documents/travels/assisi6.html"]http://www.vatican.va/news_services/liturg...ls/assisi6.html[/url]



Eumenicism and Interfaithism are deceptions

[url="http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/interfaithroads.htm"]http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/interfaithroads.htm[/url]

[url="http://www.letusreason.org/Proph10.htm"]http://www.letusreason.org/Proph10.htm[/url]

Catholic opinion

[quote]Rome should understand that the Catholic in the pew views the whole ecumenical enterprise from this scandalous workaday perspective. That is why, even with the best possible spin on the Holy Father's good intentions, you simply cannot view the likes of Assisi and other multi-faith extravaganzas in isolation.

The syncretic images and equivocal reports they engender reinforce the studiously false ecumenical messages and events that now pervade Catholic life in practice, not only furthering protestantisation among the uncatechised but effecting confusion, acrimony and even lapsation among the orthodox faithful. [/quote]

So I dont buy everyones opinion here that its all about bringing people to Christ. Christ is not being preached. They are preaching the false peace gospel warned about in Daniel 8 preparing the way for the AntiChrist

"By peace he shall destroy many"

[Guest JeffCR07]

But Budge, you arn't making logical sense. Paul had to read the texts first, THEN use them to convert unbelievers. The Holy Father is not [i]changing[/i] the dogma or doctrine of the Church, nor is he trying to incorporate false doctrines into it.

If I tell an Aborigini that Christ is God and that they should worship him, he may or may not believe me.

But if I show an Aborigini that I have knowledge of HIS faith, and then prove to him that the truth of his faith leads logically to the truth of Catholicism, how much more likely will he be to believe!

Thats all that is happening...

- Your Brother in Christ, Jeff

[Budge]

[quote]that the truth of his faith leads logically to the truth of Catholicism[/quote]

First find me one time where they openly witness at any of these interfaith events and say something along the lines of

"Let me tell you about Jesus Christ"

I have yet to find it.

There is no truth in false faiths.

I think I am truly realizing how when I became a UU after leaving the Catholic church, I really didnt far that fall from the apple tree.