MarysLittleFlower Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 (edited) Does consciousness come from the soul? (Even if the brain is used too as an instrument). Does this mean that animals are conscious even though their souls are material according to St Thomas? (I mean insects too). I don't mean reasoning or reflecting or free will. Thoughts? Edited July 30, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 It seems to me that consciousness is a manifold reality arising from the interface between the body and the soul. It seems that consciousness is 'located' in the brain, which properly belongs to the body, but it seems to be enabled and directed by the soul directly. I think of the soul as being the driver and the brain as the vehicle for human consciousness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
julianneoflongbeach Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 (edited) I know the soul is conscious. I don't think that means our physical mental intelligence & consciousness comes from it.. Edited July 30, 2015 by julianneoflongbeach Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not The Philosopher Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 The Aristotelian-Thomist understanding of the soul is that it is simply the formal structure of a living thing, with only the intellect being immaterial. So on that account the soul is the cause of consciousness in the brain in the same manner that it is the cause of your heart beating and whatnot. But not in a way that it is somehow separate from these functions. So physical events affect your consciousness, etc. The proper functioning of a human consciousness after death would only be the result of more direct divine assistance. I'd actually argue that matter is more mysterious than consciousness; we all have firsthand experience of the latter, after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarysLittleFlower Posted July 30, 2015 Author Share Posted July 30, 2015 This is way more complex than I thought. . I thought it was like the soul is conscious and when we're in the body the consciousness 'happens' through the brain as an instrument. How does that relate to Thomism? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AccountDeleted Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 Define consciousness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarysLittleFlower Posted July 31, 2015 Author Share Posted July 31, 2015 Just being aware of yourself I guess? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 This is way more complex than I thought. . I thought it was like the soul is conscious and when we're in the body the consciousness 'happens' through the brain as an instrument. How does that relate to Thomism? That is a bit too dualist in my opinion. Treats the body as a kind of shell rather than a true part of the human identity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
julianneoflongbeach Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Just being aware of yourself I guess? If that is how you define consciousness than you'd have to acknowledge animals as being conscious as well, at least on some level. Consciousness is nearly impossible to define, there have been books, tomes, written about it that ultimately end with, "we really don't know". I don't know jack about Thomism, but my current understanding of how the soul relates to consciousness begins with Genesis and evolution. I think the human brain had to evolve to a certain point before it could understand the difference between not just "good" and "bad" but between "Good" and "Evil". When that happened our souls ceased to be "material", as some think of animals being, and became the intelligent immortal souls we now possess. That understanding of good and evil, of God (something greater/beyond us), and of mortality all together with both mind and spirit is what I think of consciousness being. I don't think it's really possible to speak about consciousness without bringing in intelligence or free will regarding either the mind or soul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 I am relatively sure that Thomism denies that non-human animals are self-aware. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarysLittleFlower Posted July 31, 2015 Author Share Posted July 31, 2015 That is a bit too dualist in my opinion. Treats the body as a kind of shell rather than a true part of the human identity. OK... I'd have to understand the Thomist view then but I'm having difficulty getting it. I mean I think how some people think consciousness originates from the brain itself - those people tend to deny the soul. I'm not sure how to avoid both dualism or materialism... Because I'm neither. I am relatively sure that Thomism denies that non-human animals are self-aware. In what way could they be aware? I think even though I said self awareness as the definition I think I meant just being aware in general. My dog seems to have that ...I can see things my dog doesn't have. Might not be self aware and is driven by instinct and doesn't use reasoning - like when the leash is tangled around a bench :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tab'le De'Bah-Rye Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 (edited) I think the consciousness has something to do with deep breathing. I only say that because the old icons of angels have big bellies, or perhaps it has something to do with giving birth to thought or word and therefore goes beyond the thought or tongue and delves deeper into at least the heart where Jesus tells us is the source of our words and perhaps even the soul. Also when we are not breathing properly we can become erratic in word and thought and not really conscious of the present moment although present in the moment. Edited July 31, 2015 by Tab'le De'Bah-Rye Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AccountDeleted Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 If that is how you define consciousness than you'd have to acknowledge animals as being conscious as well, at least on some level. Consciousness is nearly impossible to define, there have been books, tomes, written about it that ultimately end with, "we really don't know". I don't know jack about Thomism, but my current understanding of how the soul relates to consciousness begins with Genesis and evolution. I think the human brain had to evolve to a certain point before it could understand the difference between not just "good" and "bad" but between "Good" and "Evil". When that happened our souls ceased to be "material", as some think of animals being, and became the intelligent immortal souls we now possess. That understanding of good and evil, of God (something greater/beyond us), and of mortality all together with both mind and spirit is what I think of consciousness being. I don't think it's really possible to speak about consciousness without bringing in intelligence or free will regarding either the mind or soul. You have hit the nail of the head- the subject is too big as is= there need to be defining parameters.Conscious can equal awareness, but to what degree must one be aware to truly say that they are self-aware? Animals have awareness but can we truly know whether or not they have self-awareness? They might be conscious of their owner (working dogs are very conscious of the commands given them) but are they conscious of their own existence? Doubtful, but then we see dogs dreaming, so they have rudimentary consciousness working even when they sleep. This is one of those great topics for the theologians and philosophers. 'I think, therefore I am!' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 OK... I'd have to understand the Thomist view then but I'm having difficulty getting it. I mean I think how some people think consciousness originates from the brain itself - those people tend to deny the soul. I'm not sure how to avoid both dualism or materialism... Because I'm neither. In what way could they be aware? I think even though I said self awareness as the definition I think I meant just being aware in general. My dog seems to have that ...I can see things my dog doesn't have. Might not be self aware and is driven by instinct and doesn't use reasoning - like when the leash is tangled around a bench :P Aware in the sense that they perceive the world around them. Not self-aware in the sense that they cannot perceive or reflect on themselves in an existential manner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tab'le De'Bah-Rye Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 (edited) I think therefore i am is like the worst saying and can make people a product of there thoughts. I tend to think animals are only semi conscious and not fully aware of there personal plight but are aware of the world around them where as humans are aware of both to varying degrees depending on heart rate, energy levels etc. Humans can even be aware of the plight of others and even creation, though many humans are seemingly disabled with the whole plight of others aside from chucking $10 in the church plate,sponsoring a child, giving a bum a quarter, etc Edited July 31, 2015 by Tab'le De'Bah-Rye Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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