little2add Posted August 15, 2015 Share Posted August 15, 2015 (edited) Except for the fact that both sides show people trying to support their families on wages that aren't designed to do that, and that's a problem. not really, mim. wage jobs are designed for entry level IE; minors, starting out/first job - part time unskilled, etc. personally i avoid fast-food places because i cant afford the luxury i brown bag last nights leftovers, if i eat out if i did have any extra money i probably wouldn't try fastfood anyway most of the fastfood stuff is fattening junk food Edited August 15, 2015 by little2add Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriela Posted August 15, 2015 Author Share Posted August 15, 2015 not really, mim. wage jobs are designed for entry level IE; minors, starting out/first job - part time unskilled, etc. personally i avoid fast-food places because i cant afford the luxury i brown bag last nights leftovers, if i eat out if i did have any extra money i probably wouldn't try fastfood anyway most of the fastfood stuff is fattening junk food I think you're missing an important fact here: They may have been "designed" as entry-level positions decades ago, but the economy has changed in such a way that they are now the only jobs many unskilled/uneducated people can get. And many of those people have families to support. It is immoral—according to the Catholic Church, as She has stated in many, many encyclicals—to pay any worker a non-living wage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archaeology cat Posted August 15, 2015 Share Posted August 15, 2015 I think you're missing an important fact here: They may have been "designed" as entry-level positions decades ago, but the economy has changed in such a way that they are now the only jobs many unskilled/uneducated people can get. And many of those people have families to support. It is immoral—according to the Catholic Church, as She has stated in many, many encyclicals—to pay any worker a non-living wage. Exactly. My husband has a PhD, yet can't find a job in his field and works a minimum wage job intended as an entry-level position. He's far from being the only person in that position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriela Posted August 15, 2015 Author Share Posted August 15, 2015 Exactly. My husband has a PhD, yet can't find a job in his field and works a minimum wage job intended as an entry-level position. He's far from being the only person in that position. I his PhD in philosophy or theology? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Didacus Posted August 15, 2015 Share Posted August 15, 2015 You know, there are numerous encyclicals that address this issue in the last century. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
little2add Posted August 15, 2015 Share Posted August 15, 2015 (edited) Its the only jobs many unskilled/uneducated people can get. unskilled/uneducated is the problem, not the employer I'm not trying to put anyone down, but getting an education is something open to all in America. its not easy, nor should it be. your right about one thing, manufacturing job going to china with no labor or environmental regulations is the root cause. you would buy a shirt or wingnut if the manufacture , in this country that use child labor or caused a toxic spill... (see where im going with this) WHY IS IT ALRIGHT TO BUY PRODUCTS FROM 3RD WORLD NATIONS KNOWN FOR SAID ABUSE? companies like WALMART, for example Edited August 15, 2015 by little2add Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archaeology cat Posted August 16, 2015 Share Posted August 16, 2015 I his PhD in philosophy or theology? No. French. But many US universities have now decided to cut their language programs, and/or they don't want to hire someone who did his degree overseas even though it was at a top research institution and his degree has been validated by a US institution. unskilled/uneducated is the problem, not the employer I'm not trying to put anyone down, but getting an education is something open to all in America. its not easy, nor should it be. your right about one thing, manufacturing job going to china with no labor or environmental regulations is the root cause. you would buy a shirt or wingnut if the manufacture , in this country that use child labor or caused a toxic spill... (see where im going with this) WHY IS IT ALRIGHT TO BUY PRODUCTS FROM 3RD WORLD NATIONS KNOWN FOR SAID ABUSE? companies like WALMART, for example Again, educated people end up in jobs like that, because the job market smells of elderberries right now (for certain fields, at least). I could get a job as a shovelbum again, but it's back-breaking work for around minimum wage. To do archaeological work that isn't field work, I'd need my PhD (for most people; I have my MA). I would agree with you that companies should pay the workers in their factories just living wages, just as they should also play their store employees just living wages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriela Posted August 16, 2015 Author Share Posted August 16, 2015 unskilled/uneducated is the problem, not the employer I'm not trying to put anyone down, but getting an education is something open to all in America. its not easy, nor should it be. your right about one thing, manufacturing job going to china with no labor or environmental regulations is the root cause. you would buy a shirt or wingnut if the manufacture , in this country that use child labor or caused a toxic spill... (see where im going with this) WHY IS IT ALRIGHT TO BUY PRODUCTS FROM 3RD WORLD NATIONS KNOWN FOR SAID ABUSE? companies like WALMART, for example First, why are you shouting? Second, technically speaking, yes, education is open to all in America. Practically speaking, it is closed to a great many people. For even more, it's not cost-effective. Degrees are being dramatically devalued today because the market is saturated with them. A society that can't provide meaningful, living-wage jobs for anyone but computer programmers is on very shaky moral ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
little2add Posted August 16, 2015 Share Posted August 16, 2015 I think you're missing an important fact here: They may have been "designed" as entry-level positions decades ago, but the economy has changed in such a way that they are now the only jobs many unskilled/uneducated people can get. And many of those people have families to support. It is immoral—according to the Catholic Church, as She has stated in many, many encyclicals—to pay any worker a non-living wage. Would it be immoral to support businesses that only paid (non-living wage) minimum wage to their employees, then? Kind of a vicious circle, you're forced to shop at Walmart because you have to make every cent count, knowing that many of the products we're produced in sweat shops and/or Child labor etc. And the employees stocking shelves, run the cash registers, and mop the floors are paid so little that they qualify for food stamps and welfare... If it's immoral to pay any worker a non-living wage then it's equally immoral to support said nefarious enterprises. is it not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriela Posted August 16, 2015 Author Share Posted August 16, 2015 Would it be immoral to support businesses that only paid (non-living wage) minimum wage to their employees, then? Kind of a vicious circle, you're forced to shop at Walmart because you have to make every cent count, knowing that many of the products we're produced in sweat shops and/or Child labor etc. And the employees stocking shelves, run the cash registers, and mop the floors are paid so little that they qualify for food stamps and welfare... If it's immoral to pay any worker a non-living wage then it's equally immoral to support said nefarious enterprises. is it not? We have had this discussion before, and I believe it was determined that one is indirectly, though not directly, responsible (morally) for the repression of workers when one supports companies that do not pay a living wage (either to shop or factory laborers). However, I believe it was largely agreed that one's own circumstances make a difference here. For example, if one is oneself low-wage and so cannot afford to shop anywhere but WalMart, then one is hardly culpable. If one can afford to shop other places where workers are paid a living wage, then one is more culpable. I personally only condemn the middle and upper classes for shopping at WalMart, because they can afford to go elsewhere. We get your point, little2add. And you're not entirely wrong: It is certainly hypocritical to condemn low-wage manufacturers but then go buy oneself a house-full of non-necessities at WalMart. We are not condemning only the employers, because it takes an entire society to collaborate in such injustice. But at this advanced stage of capitalism in the US, there isn't anywhere you can buy groceries that pays a living wage (to my knowledge). The Box Store is an outstanding example among retailers for what is possible when corporate leadership insists upon social justice. But they are, so far as I'm aware, alone in this. In such a situation, where the only places you can buy the necessities of life refuse to pay a living wage to their employees (both shop and factory laborers), what is a person to do? In that case, I think it can be said with confidence that employers are more to blame than individual consumers. And at the same time, I do think consumers are still culpable in that they do not raise more of an outcry. That being said, all consumers care about these days is where they can find the lowest price so they can buy more, More, MORE. And those who are not like this are typically so poor that they haven't the time to make social statements because they're too busy working all the time just to make ends meet. In a scenario like this, change is unlikely, and pretty much everyone but the poor is to blame. But some have more power than others to make real (and fast) change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
little2add Posted August 16, 2015 Share Posted August 16, 2015 (edited) First, why are you shouting? Second, technically speaking, yes, education is open to all in America. Practically speaking, it is closed to a great many people. For even more, it's not cost-effective. Degrees are being dramatically devalued today because the market is saturated with them. A society that can't provide meaningful, living-wage jobs for anyone but computer programmers is on very shaky moral ground. how is education closed to a great many people? public schools are free, trade-work has apprentice opportunities, community college's offer night and weekend classes... (you must be willing to work hard, stay off drugs, and apply yourself) Edited August 16, 2015 by little2add Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriela Posted August 16, 2015 Author Share Posted August 16, 2015 (edited) how is education closed to a great many people? public schools are free, trade-work has apprentice opportunities, community college's offer night and weekend classes... Public schools aren't free. We pay for them with our taxes. And even so, it costs more than money to go to school. If a person's family is so poor that they can't make ends meet, the teenagers are likely to drop out of high school to work to help support the family. For such a family, education costs time that they can't afford. Many people have no idea how to apply for community college, that they are eligible for education loans, or that there are apprenticeship opportunities available. Someone without a high school diploma isn't in fact eligible for any of these things, and getting a high school diploma may seem impossible to many people because of time and other financial constraints. The educational system being "legally" open to all without discrimination therefore does not equate to education itself actually being available to all. Some people, because of their life circumstances, cannot take the time to go to school. Others, because of their extremely limited education itself, do not realize that that may be an option for them—which is effectively the same thing as education being closed to them. Edited August 16, 2015 by Gabriela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maggyie Posted August 16, 2015 Share Posted August 16, 2015 (edited) Read this horrible story in the New York Times to read how Amazon is abusing its white collar workers (and blue collar too. My "favorite" story is the one where the warehouse workers have to toil in 100 degree heat without a/c, and instead of letting them take a break, management has ambulances parked outside to take the workers away as they collapse.... http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/16/technology/inside-amazon-wrestling-big-ideas-in-a-bruising-workplace.html Edited August 16, 2015 by Maggyie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriela Posted August 16, 2015 Author Share Posted August 16, 2015 Read this horrible story in the New York Times to read how Amazon is abusing its white collar workers (and blue collar too. My "favorite" story is the one where the warehouse workers have to toil in 100 degree heat without a/c, and instead of letting them take a break, management has ambulances parked outside to take the workers away as they collapse.... http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/16/technology/inside-amazon-wrestling-big-ideas-in-a-bruising-workplace.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
little2add Posted August 16, 2015 Share Posted August 16, 2015 i find that story about management having ambulances parked outside... hard to believe. ambulances cost 10 times as much money to the employer and potential lawsuits, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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