Fr. Ripperger: NeoCatholicism vs. Traditionalism

[Nihil Obstat]

Faith without works is dead.

 

[16] And one of you say to them: Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; yet give them not those things that are necessary for the body, what shall it profit? [17] So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself. [18] But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith. [19] Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble. [20] But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

[21] Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? [22]Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect? [23] And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God. [24] Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only? [25] And in like manner also Rahab the harlot, was not she justified by works, receiving the messengers, and sending them out another way?

[26] For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead

[Guest]

I believe faith without works is dead. But I'm saved firstly by grace through my faith in Jesus Christ.

Edited August 3, 2015 by Guest

[MarysLittleFlower]

Josh,

You are misunderstanding.. You are confusing grace with faith alone. * Works come from grace too.* that's how Protestants speak about it: as if faith alone is by grace and with works its no longer by grace. But works are the result of grace and are not our own only.

The Protestant view treats works as something to boast of by separating them from grace. We are saved by grace when we cooperate through faith that is not alone but LIVED OUT. Not living out faith is not a cooperation with it.

As for the verse no one is rejecting it. We don't save ourselves without God. We don't earn it, its a gift that we receive. But we receive through cooperation which is a lived out faith. Faith by definition is not "alone". It's a living thing that is expressed or else its dead. 

I believe faith without works is dead. But I'm saved firstly by grace through my faith in Jesus Christ.

you are saved by grace that you receive through a living faith. What is a living faith? It includes works as a form of cooperation that is still connected to grace. That's why its not faith alone. There's no such thing as faith alone because it must be lived out to be a true reception and cooperation with grace. I hope it makes sense how this is not at all thinking you can earn salvation. We don't rely on the works but the grace. We receive the grace through a lived out real faith not bare intellectual assent with no repentance or love, which are works. Repentance is a work that is an expression of faith and comes from grace. 

[Seven77]

I think its better--and accurate--to say, by the grace of God alone, we are saved through faith and works---faith manifested in works.

[Nihil Obstat]

Interestingly, the precise concern earlier was regarding the unintentional internalizing of Protestant theology. Seems that such a concern is not misplaced.

[Seven77]

Interestingly, the precise concern earlier was regarding the unintentional internalizing of Protestant theology. Seems that such a concern is not misplaced.

The problem isn't "neo-Catholics," the problem is poor catechesis...

[MarysLittleFlower]

I think its better--and accurate--to say, by the grace of God alone, we are saved through faith and works---faith manifested in works. 

let me know what you think of: we are saved by grace when we cooperate with it through a lived out faith (believing and acting on it). Its grace that saves. We just need to actively receive it for it to be applied to us. It doesn't mean the cooperation is the actual source but its necessary in order to to benefit from the source. 

You'll have the Catholic position if you put these Trent canons together  

If anyone says that man can be justified before God by his own works, whether done by his own natural powers or through the teaching of the law,[110] without divine grace through Jesus Christ, let him be anathema

If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone,[114] meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification, and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, let him be anathema

 

I recommend this whole link:

http://www.ewtn.com/library/councils/trent6.htm

Canon 12 I think means that justifying faith includes dispositions and cooperations like repentance, contrition etc. Its basically saying that justifying faith must include works like repentance and any work to cooperate with grace, and only belief is not enough.

Edited August 3, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower

[Seven77]

let me know what you think of: we are saved by grace when we cooperate with it through a lived out faith (believing and acting on it). Its grace that saves. We just need to actively receive it for it to be applied to us. It doesn't mean the cooperation is the actual source but its necessary in order to to benefit from the source. 

You'll have the Catholic position if you put these Trent canons together  

If anyone says that man can be justified before God by his own works, whether done by his own natural powers or through the teaching of the law,[110] without divine grace through Jesus Christ, let him be anathema

If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone,[114] meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification, and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, let him be anathema

 

I recommend this whole link:

http://www.ewtn.com/library/councils/trent6.htm

Canon 12 I think means that justifying faith includes dispositions and cooperations like repentance, contrition etc. Its basically saying that justifying faith must include works like repentance and any work to cooperate with grace, and only belief is not enough.

Sure. But its a whole lot fewer words to put it the way i did.

[MarysLittleFlower]

Protestant position: if you believe that's all you need. But: if ALL you have is belief... Then you are not repenting. Repentance is a work of the will. Do we need to repent? Yes. So: we need more than just belief. So: its not faith alone. Its just reasonable. Otherwise you're essentially rejecting repentance and good dispositions for Confession, which are necessary. Salvation = grace which is received by cooperation not faith separated from everything. It doesn't mean we are justified by works. Works are for reception of grace and to let it transform us.

[Gabriela]

The problem isn't "neo-Catholics," the problem is poor catechesis...

Good, important distinction. Super props. 

[Nihil Obstat]

 

The problem isn't "neo-Catholics," the problem is poor catechesis...

Whose fault is poor catechesis?

[Gabriela]

 

Whose fault is poor catechesis?

[Nihil Obstat]

 

Trick question. The answer is George Bush of course. Or Obama. Whatever, one of those two. Everything is his fault.

[Guest]

Ahhh Civil society how I wish we could go back. Back when blacks couldn't vote or drink from the same water fountain. Those  were the days.

Why the negative prop Archeology Cat? Were those not evil times? Not that these times aren't evil as well.

[Catlick]

Were those not evil times? Not that these times aren't evil as well.

It is debatable whether our age of 'racial justice' is better than the age of slavery; back then black people were at least allowed to be born instead of being aborted.