Mortification

[Egeria]

The Church has always taught us to respect our bodies and not to inflict deliberate harm. In the past some people veered away from penance and into self-harm, and now the Church is very cautious with physical mortification because it's so easy for people to get drawn into these damaging habits. There are plenty of other ways to do penance that don't involve this risk. 

This.

Reading this thread, I have been thinking that there is a big distinction (for me at least, but I also think in Orthodox/Eastern tradition) between genuine asceticism, which is demanding and pushes our boundaries, but is orientated to a positive, transfigured life, and what I would see as distortions that seek pain for the sake of pain (or, worse, as a gateway to other passions). One of the things that concerns and saddens me is realizing that many Christians in the West, at least in my experience, have dismissed asceticism because it had become identified with sado-masochism. But in rejecting the unhealthy stuff, they have also rejected a genuine asceticism which is truly life-giving.

[AccountDeleted]

 

MLF- I think the problem we are having is simply one of interpretation here. When I describe something as outdated, I don't mean that it still doesn't have value, merely that as times change, so do attitudes and ways of looking at things. I, personally, am a very old fashioned sort of person and my house reflects this. I am particularly fond of the Victorian era, even though it was a very repressive time culturally. I love the clothes and the furniture etc. Anyway, my point is simply that as our understanding of human beings grows, we learn that certain things are like a two edged sword - they can be used for good or they can be abused. Physical mortification is one of those things. If you are a perfectly sensible person, who has a director with common sense, then for you, the physical mortifications might be something that would be of benefit to you.

My concern is that some things from the past can be viewed through a 'romantic' haze and appear to be more valuable than they actually are - because they are more dramatic and/or intense. As so many people on here have mentioned, there are so many incredibly effective ways to mortify oneself without doing actual physical bodily harm that one wonders why anyone would even want to do that kind of penance. But we do all have affinities, and if this is 'your thing', then simply be sure that you do it with care and common sense.

The OP stated that she has a 'serious fear of entering a community and finding out afterwards that they practice mortification of the flesh (not as in fasting, more like chains and flagellation)'. 

My posts have been in response to her concerns, rather than trying to address the penitential practices of any one individual. As I pointed out before, when one enters a community that engages in such practices, there is no consultation about how or when this is done. That is different than an individual who chooses to engage in a physical mortification and chooses how and when and how often, under direction.  The OP has every right to choose not to enter a community that engages in practices she fears, and she also has the right not to feel judged for this.

And finally, just because a holy person has done something in the past, does not mean that they did not do it to excess, or that they should be used as an example. St John of the Cross preached against physical mortifications and then wore a rope around his waist until it was cutting into his skin and made him bleed (probably getting infected as well). So, all I'm saying is don't assume that everything that was done in the past is necessarily something we should be doing now - at least not always in the same way. Remember that the devil can use things that seem holy to injure us. Some penances can lead one to feeling very self-satisfied and vain about their practices. Just a warning.

 

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Beatitude and Egeria - Yes, here I agree. Asceticism is an entirely different kettle of fish than physical self-harm, although it can have similar dangers of leading to pride and vanity. A lot depends on the motivation and the method. The Buddhists have used asceticism as a part of their religious practices for centuries. For us Catholics, aligning one's self-denial with something like the suffering of the Third World is a good way to remember that not everyone is as fortunate as we are. We join ourselves with the rest of humanity. 

I like the cold water idea, B. When I lived as a hermit in the Australian bush, I had no electricity and had to use a wood stove for heat and to heat up water for washing and bathing. I had no toilet and had to use a bucket at night, which I would empty into a hole I would dig the next day. All my water came from rain tanks outside the cabin and I used a generator to pump the water from the main tank to the holding tank for gravity feed to the house. With no electricity, I also had no refrigeration and I could barely afford to pay for petrol for the generator, which I only ran for the water pump or briefly in the evenings for lights (usually I used candles and kerosene lanterns). I counted every watt of power! Most of my baths were simply buckets of warm water heated up on the wood stove. This asceticism was not a deliberate choice - it was due to poverty - but it did make me appreciate what we take for granted so much of the time in the First World, and I used the time to come closer to God through prayer. After I had found a source of income and moved out of the bush cabin into a town flat, I remember walking around the rooms, touching light switches, flushing the toilet, turning on hot water, and feeling that it was all such luxury and that we in our Western world are all blessed with so many material things.

So I think that performing some kind of asceticism can be an act of unity with all of the poor of the world - unity is really the basis of the MCs practice of still washing in buckets when they are in Western countries - one of the nuns told me that their sisters in India didn't have any other option, so they wanted to be in unity with them. For most of us, such continual asceticism is difficult, living in the world as we do, but the regular or occasional act of self-denial can be just as effective, if done consciously. And these little acts can range from something physical like a cold shower (sensible not to do it when one is ill!) or something material like denying oneself a much loved tasty treat, or especially something social, like offering to help someone with something or refusing to speak harshly when someone has frustrated us. Every day we are given opportunities to do 'penance' in tiny little ways.  We never have to look far to find ways to mortify ourselves.

 

 

Edited July 29, 2015 by nunsense

[MarysLittleFlower]

Beatitude, I agree that God and the Church focus on different things for different times...  My understanding is that today the Church officially doesn't discourage corporal mortification less than before, it's just less common in our culture? It seems to me like many old are V2 authors were equally careful with it in terms of guiding away from pride or injuring the body... I know some Saints went further but they obeyed their directors when told to lessen it or stop, and I think they only went so far because of a desire to share in Christ's suffering. Of course it doesn't mean disfiguring the body or making yourself sick. I don't think they wanted that either... It just seems like at some point in spiritual growth, the person has such a strong desire to love God that they take risks without any fear or even too much reflection. An SD guided them as to the prudence in many cases they were asked to lessen the penance and in humility they obeyed.

to answer your question, I was baptised Eastern Orthodox as a pre-teen but we weren't practicing. I later became Protestant, then God lead me to the Sacraments and I came back to Orthodoxy for a very short time but then became Catholic through the Latin rite.  I guess you could say I had very little instruction in Orthodoxy - I had pre baptism courses but it was basic things I neededto know at that level, not spirituality. When I became Catholic it was through the Latin rite but canonically I am Eastern Catholic. There is no parish of my rite here so I attend a Latin parish. My spirituality is very Latin for this reason. I have been to Eastern Catholic parishes and I'm trying to learn more about the Eastern spirituality too, but I've been instructed in Latin spirituality more. My mistakes are my own

This.

Reading this thread, I have been thinking that there is a big distinction (for me at least, but I also think in Orthodox/Eastern tradition) between genuine asceticism, which is demanding and pushes our boundaries, but is orientated to a positive, transfigured life, and what I would see as distortions that seek pain for the sake of pain (or, worse, as a gateway to other passions). One of the things that concerns and saddens me is realizing that many Christians in the West, at least in my experience, have dismissed asceticism because it had become identified with sado-masochism. But in rejecting the unhealthy stuff, they have also rejected a genuine asceticism which is truly life-giving.

Egeria, I would disagree that its pain for the sake of pain... When I read the Saints I never got that impression... It didn't sound at all like they liked the pain itself and they weren't focused on themselves and neither was it a gateway to other passions for them... I mean it definitely wasn't a way to any sexual thing because they were so intent on perfect chastity. They were also careful against pride. From what it sounds like their only aim was to share in Christ's suffering somehow... The Church teaches asceticism as well. I think in Catholicism its both, not either just my impression but I never saw any focus on pain itself or enjoyment of pain in the Saints. Their approach was very spiritual. 

[marigold]

Ok, I think we're starting to go in circles now...

[MarysLittleFlower]

 

MLF- I think the problem we are having is simply one of interpretation here. When I describe something as outdated, I don't mean that it still doesn't have value, merely that as times change, so do attitudes and ways of looking at things. I, personally, am a very old fashioned sort of person and my house reflects this. I am particularly fond of the Victorian era, even though it was a very repressive time culturally. I love the clothes and the furniture etc. Anyway, my point is simply that as our understanding of human beings grows, we learn that certain things are like a two edged sword - they can be used for good or they can be abused. Physical mortification is one of those things. If you are a perfectly sensible person, who has a director with common sense, then for you, the physical mortifications might be something that would be of benefit to you.

My concern is that some things from the past can be viewed through a 'romantic' haze and appear to be more valuable than they actually are - because they are more dramatic and/or intense. As so many people on here have mentioned, there are so many incredibly effective ways to mortify oneself without doing actual physical bodily harm that one wonders why anyone would even want to do that kind of penance. But we do all have affinities, and if this is 'your thing', then simply be sure that you do it with care and common sense.

The OP stated that she has a 'serious fear of entering a community and finding out afterwards that they practice mortification of the flesh (not as in fasting, more like chains and flagellation)'. 

My posts have been in response to her concerns, rather than trying to address the penitential practices of any one individual. As I pointed out before, when one enters a community that engages in such practices, there is no consultation about how or when this is done. That is different than an individual who chooses to engage in a physical mortification and chooses how and when and how often, under direction.  The OP has every right to choose not to enter a community that engages in practices she fears, and she also has the right not to feel judged for this.

And finally, just because a holy person has done something in the past, does not mean that they did not do it to excess, or that they should be used as an example. St John of the Cross preached against physical mortifications and then wore a rope around his waist until it was cutting into his skin and made him bleed (probably getting infected as well). So, all I'm saying is don't assume that everything that was done in the past is necessarily something we should be doing now - at least not always in the same way. Remember that the devil can use things that seem holy to injure us. Some penances can lead one to feeling very self-satisfied and vain about their practices. Just a warning.

 

--------------

 

Beatitude and Egeria - Yes, here I agree. Asceticism is an entirely different kettle of fish than physical self-harm, although it can have similar dangers of leading to pride and vanity. A lot depends on the motivation and the method. The Buddhists have used asceticism as a part of their religious practices for centuries. For us Catholics, aligning one's self-denial with something like the suffering of the Third World is a good way to remember that not everyone is as fortunate as we are. We join ourselves with the rest of humanity. 

I like the cold water idea, B. When I lived as a hermit in the Australian bush, I had no electricity and had to use a wood stove for heat and to heat up water for washing and bathing. I had no toilet and had to use a bucket at night, which I would empty into a hole I would dig the next day. All my water came from rain tanks outside the cabin and I used a generator to pump the water from the main tank to the holding tank for gravity feed to the house. With no electricity, I also had no refrigeration and I could barely afford to pay for petrol for the generator, which I only ran for the water pump or briefly in the evenings for lights (usually I used candles and kerosene lanterns). I counted every watt of power! Most of my baths were simply buckets of warm water heated up on the wood stove. This asceticism was not a deliberate choice - it was due to poverty - but it did make me appreciate what we take for granted so much of the time in the First World, and I used the time to come closer to God through prayer. After I had found a source of income and moved out of the bush cabin into a town flat, I remember walking around the rooms, touching light switches, flushing the toilet, turning on hot water, and feeling that it was all such luxury and that we in our Western world are all blessed with so many material things.

So I think that performing some kind of asceticism can be an act of unity with all of the poor of the world - unity is really the basis of the MCs practice of still washing in buckets when they are in Western countries - one of the nuns told me that their sisters in India didn't have any other option, so they wanted to be in unity with them. For most of us, such continual asceticism is difficult, living in the world as we do, but the regular or occasional act of self-denial can be just as effective, if done consciously. And these little acts can range from something physical like a cold shower (sensible not to do it when one is ill!) or something material like denying oneself a much loved tasty treat, or especially something social, like offering to help someone with something or refusing to speak harshly when someone has frustrated us. Every day we are given opportunities to do 'penance' in tiny little ways.  We never have to look far to find ways to mortify ourselves.

 

 

i see what you mean Nunsense I agree with many things you say here. I agree it can be vain. Of course asceticism can be too so can any spiritual practice. I remember St John spoke much ofthese types of warnings so i believe his own mortification was humble. By the way, I don't do these penances and I don't plan to right now unless my SD thinks I should. I'm just speaking about others. I enjoyed reading about your experience about living in the wilderness!

[vee]

Speaking of going in circles reminds me of the mortifying, penitential pilgrimage of Lough Derg

[MarysLittleFlower]

Nunsense: "As so many people on here have mentioned, there are so many incredibly effective ways to mortify oneself without doing actual physical bodily harm that one wonders why anyone would even want to do that kind of penance. But we do all have affinities, and if this is 'your thing', then simply be sure that you do it with care and common sense."

I just forgot to add, I think that while of course a person is not obligated to do these kinds of penances, and spiritual penances such as accepting humiliations can be safer, - some are drawn to these particular penances because of a desire to share in aspects of the Passion like the Scourging. Maybe people are drawn to meditating on various aspects of the Passion at different times in their life... 

By the way, I could sort of relate to what you said before about the comforts we have in the West... My grandmother had a little house in another country that is a developed country but her house was in a very rural area. I went there in the summers as a kid. There was no phone, no plumbing ( we brought water from the well) though there was electricity. Yet it was my favourite place as a kid. The water was delicious, I could just run around through the fields and it was right beside a large forest (just wilderness). The houses are made of logs. Its so different now where I live, and I remember coming here to North America as a kid everything seemed very luxurious. But I think I appreciate the way my grandma lived because although its more challenging physically, its somehow less constraining too. 

[AccountDeleted]

 MLF- I think I have said all I want to say on this subject. We do seem to be going around in circles. I don't think you fully understand what I have been trying to say and you seem to want to defend the practice for some reason, when I am not attacking it - just addressing the concerns of the OP and cautioning about excesses. But I'm happy to leave it here, for me anyway.  

[MarysLittleFlower]

OK I'm sorry if I didn't understand. Some of the posts just sounded to me like the practice is disliked though not rejected as part of Church tradition. (I mean posts by various posters). Maybe I'm just reminded of some other discussions I've had. We are sort of going in circles

Edited July 30, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower