Mortification

[Benedictus]

Sure, I'm not saying transparency and asking questions is a bad thing. Where I think negative criticism could come in is if a person says they feel a possible vocation to the community but that they definitely won't join if they do certain mortifications.Communities sometimes hear lots of entry needs from people - I feel called to your community and would join but you don't have a habit, so I won't. If you stop this or introduce that then I may apply etc.

Sure, people have an idea of the life they feel called to but it can seem like the personal requirements could come before the calling. If God wants someone to join a specific community then should practices the person dislikes in that community stop them applying? Shouldn't it be a bit more considered than that?

I think it's a matter of tone, tact and attitude on how things are asked and conducted. I guess that was my main point. If it's done badly by the seeker then I think the community may well draw a negative impression of the person. So I think they should think well about how they present their view and attitude about such practices.

[MarysLittleFlower]

What would be an example of a reformed primitive community except the discalced Carmelites? Are Benedictines or Franciscans?

I have to say that I totally agree with only doing these mortification with direction and in a way that leads to virtue... I think in the Dialogues Our Lord spoke to St Catherine how they are not in themselves virtuous (these penances) rather can lead to virtue.

I don't know at all the OPs concern with mortification and I don't mean this about her, but I'm a little confused why *in general* there's such an issue about it today? I mean why wasn't it an issue before but is today? It bothers me how the first thing that comes to peoples minds is either excess or some sort of twisted sexual thing..  Rather than sharing in the Passion. Its not necessarily anyone's fault I think its just our culture. But I think our culture is incorrect in this.

Sure if a woman was abused in the past she might struggle with this. And its fine I think for a novice mistress or mother superior to give the advice that it should be stopped if it becomes a temptation. But I think in the past the fear of temptation was mostly about pride, and today people often think of something sexual - just based on how society tends to view it. Its fine for a community to warn of that to novices. But I just don'tunderstand why today this is what people think of. I am notleaving myself out cause I grew up in the same culture. But this is sort of a reminder to me to limit exposure to society's views and try to not be influenced by them.

I mean it bothers me how today everything has to be sexual even pain of all things. (Or in this case discomfort). I understand the fear if someone was abused. But other times in general is this not a symptom of our culture being influenced by perversions? ( I'm calling it what it is).

Another common fear is excess, which is more of a common fear, and the solution to this is if course direction. But it seems before modern times people didn't have afear of this, though direction was the same in prudence. Is it our fear of pain? Or something else? I'm not commenting on the OP... But on general concerns that come up often. If I was in a community and a new nun expressed fear of this, for ANY reason, I believe in being understanding and patient with her. And things like obedience are greater than penance. Spiritual mortification is also more difficult and more profitable than corporal.

But I do wonder why this is such a controversial topic today... I don't mean a particular nun having concerns... Or aparticular woman discerning... But the culture. 

Sure, I'm not saying transparency and asking questions is a bad thing. Where I think negative criticism could come in is if a person says they feel a possible vocation to the community but that they definitely won't join if they do certain mortifications.Communities sometimes hear lots of entry needs from people - I feel called to your community and would join but you don't have a habit, so I won't. If you stop this or introduce that then I may apply etc.

Sure, people have an idea of the life they feel called to but it can seem like the personal requirements could come before the calling. If God wants someone to join a specific community then should practices the person dislikes in that community stop them applying? Shouldn't it be a bit more considered than that?

I think it's a matter of tone, tact and attitude on how things are asked and conducted. I guess that was my main point. If it's done badly by the seeker then I think the community may well draw a negative impression of the person. So I think they should think well about how they present their view and attitude about such practices.

if someone has a deeply personal reason, like past abuse, I think that is different from disliking a custom... But if its only dislike, I think its good to try and surrender that to God but if its really bothering someone maybe they could enter another community, or maybe it could help speaking to someone about this difficulty and addressing specific fears (like excess or anything else). 

Edited July 25, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower

[Lilllabettt]

Sure if a woman was abused in the past she might struggle with this. And its fine I think for a novice mistress or mother superior to give the advice that it should be stopped if it becomes a temptation. But I think in the past the fear of temptation was mostly about pride, and today people often think of something sexual - just based on how society tends to view it. Its fine for a community to warn of that to novices. But I just don't understand why today this is what people think of. I am not leaving myself out cause I grew up in the same culture. But this is sort of a reminder to me to limit exposure to society's views and try to not be influenced by them.

I mean it bothers me how today everything has to be sexual even pain of all things. (Or in this case discomfort). I understand the fear if someone was abused. But other times in general is this not a symptom of our culture being influenced by perversions? ( I'm calling it what it is).

 

There is nothing new under the sun, and BDSM has always been a sexual proclivity in some portion of the population. It's seems suddenly "controversial" now just because people now talk about it.  In days gone by there was no internet, and people didn't discuss such things with their neighbors over afternoon tea.

 

 

 

Edited July 25, 2015 by Lilllabettt

[truthfinder]

Lilllabettt's got it in regards to mortification itself, but many spiritual authors (including several saints over the centuries) have also cautioned about the possibility of sexual arousal while meditating.  There has definitely been a lurid fascination with penance - it's part of the reason why anti-convent literature was so successful in the 1700-1800s in the US. It's not so much that various sexual practices weren't discussed (or portrayed in popular publications), it's just that now it's deemed acceptable within the broader social sphere.

I wanted to add, though, that I would much sooner join a convent that practiced the discipline every day than a convent where they had the propensity of eating whatever food they received, no matter what shape it was in.

Edited July 25, 2015 by truthfinder

[beatitude]

As well as what Lilllabettt and Truthfinder have said, it's worth noting that physical mortification wasn't universal in the past. St Francis de Sales did not emphasise such penances, for example, so they have never been a feature of life in Visitation monasteries. Each community has always had its own approach, and what's good for one person is not necessarily good for another. Personally I would not find it particularly difficult to use the discipline, but I doubt it would help me much - for me the greatest mortification is not showing my crankiness when I'm tired. I need a lot of sleep and get grumpy when I don't have it, and wrestling with my temper on those days is easily the most challenging penance I face. I think sometimes we are tempted to view 'extra' penance as somehow better than the penance that comes through fulfilling our daily duty faithfully and unflinchingly.

What would be an example of a reformed primitive community except the discalced Carmelites? Are Benedictines or Franciscans?

Cistercians are reformed or 'primitive' Benedictines. There are communities following a primitive rule within the Franciscan tradition too - Poor Clare Colettines, for example. But not all primitive or reformed communities necessarily practise corporal mortification.

[AccountDeleted]

 

I have to say that I totally agree with only doing these mortification with direction and in a way that leads to virtue... I think in the Dialogues Our Lord spoke to St Catherine how they are not in themselves virtuous (these penances) rather can lead to virtue.

I don't know at all the OPs concern with mortification and I don't mean this about her, but I'm a little confused why *in general* there's such an issue about it today? I mean why wasn't it an issue before but is today? It bothers me how the first thing that comes to peoples minds is either excess or some sort of twisted sexual thing..  Rather than sharing in the Passion. Its not necessarily anyone's fault I think its just our culture. But I think our culture is incorrect in this.

Sure if a woman was abused in the past she might struggle with this. And its fine I think for a novice mistress or mother superior to give the advice that it should be stopped if it becomes a temptation. But I think in the past the fear of temptation was mostly about pride, and today people often think of something sexual - just based on how society tends to view it. Its fine for a community to warn of that to novices. But I just don'tunderstand why today this is what people think of. I am notleaving myself out cause I grew up in the same culture. But this is sort of a reminder to me to limit exposure to society's views and try to not be influenced by them.

I mean it bothers me how today everything has to be sexual even pain of all things. (Or in this case discomfort). I understand the fear if someone was abused. But other times in general is this not a symptom of our culture being influenced by perversions? ( I'm calling it what it is).

Another common fear is excess, which is more of a common fear, and the solution to this is if course direction. But it seems before modern times people didn't have afear of this, though direction was the same in prudence. Is it our fear of pain? Or something else? I'm not commenting on the OP... But on general concerns that come up often. If I was in a community and a new nun expressed fear of this, for ANY reason, I believe in being understanding and patient with her. And things like obedience are greater than penance. Spiritual mortification is also more difficult and more profitable than corporal.

But I do wonder why this is such a controversial topic today... I don't mean a particular nun having concerns... Or aparticular woman discerning... But the culture. 

if someone has a deeply personal reason, like past abuse, I think that is different from disliking a custom... But if its only dislike, I think its good to try and surrender that to God but if its really bothering someone maybe they could enter another community, or maybe it could help speaking to someone about this difficulty and addressing specific fears (like excess or anything else). 

 

I think one thing we have to remember is that different cultures in different times find different things acceptable and/or unacceptable. There are customs in the Philippines at Easter, for example, that horrify me, but obviously they consider doing them a great honour and perhaps even holy. Ordinary men not only undertake self-flagellation and other mortifications, they actually take it as far as enacting out the crucifixion, with real nails being driven into their hands. If you read the description below from Wikipedia, you will note that 'these customs are strongly discouraged by the Catholic Church in the Philippines, which considers them to be fanatical, superstitious expressions of Folk Catholicism and self-harm contrary to its teachings on the body.'  (emphasis mine, colours Wikipedia's)  And yet, men do it very year because they believe it is a penance for their sins and expresses gratitude for favours shown.

So it does us well to remember that while some people find things like the discipline and cilice to be holy, not everyone in every culture considers self-flagellation to be a 'normal' mortification. To some, it can just seem fanatical and obsessive. That being the case, a person who has a strong aversion (either culturally, psychologically, physically or spiritually) to such mortifications as the discipline or the cilice, should not be made to feel that they are somehow less holy than those who are accepting of these practices. One can be just as holy in a community that does not do these things, and in fact, as has been mentioned many times, there are plenty of other mortifications in any community living environment that can test one's patience and charity and 'holiness'.

I also disagree that one need be a victim of abuse to see an element of sexual self-gratification in a practice that stimulates the physical senses in an unnatural way. Pleasure and pain are very closely connected and denial of any sense can cause an increase in another - witness blind people usually being able to hear better than those with sight. I have personally never been abused in any way and yet I find some of these practices to be bordering on a pathway to sexual substitution/gratification. Sounds harsh, perhaps, but something to think about.

And although initially I had no objection to using the discipline in the convent, I later began to see it as a bizarre and out of date ritual, which only seemed even more peculiar because it was carried out in a pitch black room with the entire community. I can honestly say I never felt prayerful at this time (actually it was all very embarrassing) and certainly couldn't think of Jesus when I was listening to the sounds of 14 or so women whipping themselves in the dark to the recitation of the Miserere - I just waited for it to end. As a meditation technique, it was woeful, and as a mortification, well - apart from feeling like an idiot, I doubt that it increased my virtue or holiness to any great degree, but then who am I to judge? I do know that I found much greater mortifications in simply living in community. And I am sure that I was a much greater mortification to others than the discipline was. But just my opinion, of course.  

 

=========================

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion_in_the_Philippines 

Crucifixion in the Philippines is a devotional practice held every Good Friday, and are part of the local observance of Holy Week. Devotees or penitents called magdarame in Kapampanganare willingly crucified in imitation of Jesus Christ's suffering and death, while related practices are carry wooden crosses, crawling on rough pavement, and self-flagellation. Penitents considered these acts to be mortification of the flesh, and undertake these to ask forgiveness for sins, to fulfil a panatà (Filipino, "vow"), or to express gratitude for favours granted.

These customs are strongly discouraged by the Catholic Church in the Philippines, which considers them to be fanatical, superstitious expressions of Folk Catholicism and self-harm contrary to its teachings on the body. The Department of Health meanwhile often insists that participants in the rites should have tetanus shots and that the nails used should be sterilized.^[1]

 

 

Edited July 26, 2015 by nunsense

[SNJM]

I would also like to add the consideration of thinking about our relationship with God as  something extremely intimate, and along the lines of what Nunsuch said, the line between pleasure & pain is very thin, fine thing. I would ask that those of you who have had really deep, intimate, true experiences of God reflect upon how it can awaken your entire being. Bernini's sculpture of St. Teresa in ectasy is a great example. Adding physical touch to the mix, even if it's our own, with or without an instrument, can lead to confusion.

I wanted to add something my own SD, the former Carthusian I've mentioned before, said. In talking about physical penances, I was very surprised to hear how fast he personally adjusted to wearing the hair shirt. He said that it would have been much worse if they had two months off and then two months on. For him, he said the hardest penance was eating the many sweets, cookies, cakes - whatever - that were sent to the Charterhouse at Christmas and Easter. Out of poverty, they ate them, but he told me they couldn't wait to get back to their usual diet as the "overdose" of dessert items left them in a foggy lethargy. So, in reflection, it's really all very individual and not always what one would think!

Rose

 

 

 

[MarysLittleFlower]

Just out of interest, do Benedictine communities do these sorts of penances? I mean Benedictines in general not Cistercians.

Thanks for the replies to my question.  I see what you all are saying but I guess I dont really see these mortifications as something outdated. I wouldn't compare them to the enactment of the Crucifixion in the Philippines because that is discouraged by the Church while the other penances are allowed with prudence. I think the difference might be that they are done in moderation and not to injure the body. I certainly agree that it should only be done with direction, and that there can be various temptations. I also agree that spiritual mortification is safer and more difficult at the same time. I have never tried corporal mortification like that myself but I believe that accepting trials allowed by God and humiliations is safer spiritually and does a lot sanctification I wouldn't say that those who don't do these penances are less holy. But I don't think that they are wrong to do if done properly.  

[puellapaschalis]

Just out of interest, do Benedictine communities do these sorts of penances? I mean Benedictines in general not Cistercians.

OSB houses are autonomous; it varies.

[MarysLittleFlower]

I would also like to add the consideration of thinking about our relationship with God as  something extremely intimate, and along the lines of what Nunsuch said, the line between pleasure & pain is very thin, fine thing. I would ask that those of you who have had really deep, intimate, true experiences of God reflect upon how it can awaken your entire being. Bernini's sculpture of St. Teresa in ectasy is a great example. Adding physical touch to the mix, even if it's our own, with or without an instrument, can lead to confusion.

I wanted to add something my own SD, the former Carthusian I've mentioned before, said. In talking about physical penances, I was very surprised to hear how fast he personally adjusted to wearing the hair shirt. He said that it would have been much worse if they had two months off and then two months on. For him, he said the hardest penance was eating the many sweets, cookies, cakes - whatever - that were sent to the Charterhouse at Christmas and Easter. Out of poverty, they ate them, but he told me they couldn't wait to get back to their usual diet as the "overdose" of dessert items left them in a foggy lethargy. So, in reflection, it's really all very individual and not always what one would think!

Rose

 

 

 

That's quite an amusing story I see what you mean about confusion... I actually read something from one of the Carmelite Saints about how a person can at first get disturbing feelings during spiritual consolation, but over time this goes away as the person gets purified. Consolations get more spiritual and when the body begins to share in them in a different way. At the time St Teresa would have had the ecstasy and the piercing of her heart, she was in a quite advanced stage of mental prayer this is at least my understanding! But based on those beginning stages, perhaps its more prudent to avoid those types of penances if those feelings are a difficulty during prayer.

[MarysLittleFlower]

I think one thing we have to remember is that different cultures in different times find different things acceptable and/or unacceptable. There are customs in the Philippines at Easter, for example, that horrify me, but obviously they consider doing them a great honour and perhaps even holy. Ordinary men not only undertake self-flagellation and other mortifications, they actually take it as far as enacting out the crucifixion, with real nails being driven into their hands. If you read the description below from Wikipedia, you will note that 'these customs are strongly discouraged by the Catholic Church in the Philippines, which considers them to be fanatical, superstitious expressions of Folk Catholicism and self-harm contrary to its teachings on the body.'  (emphasis mine, colours Wikipedia's)  And yet, men do it very year because they believe it is a penance for their sins and expresses gratitude for favours shown.

So it does us well to remember that while some people find things like the discipline and cilice to be holy, not everyone in every culture considers self-flagellation to be a 'normal' mortification. To some, it can just seem fanatical and obsessive. That being the case, a person who has a strong aversion (either culturally, psychologically, physically or spiritually) to such mortifications as the discipline or the cilice, should not be made to feel that they are somehow less holy than those who are accepting of these practices. One can be just as holy in a community that does not do these things, and in fact, as has been mentioned many times, there are plenty of other mortifications in any community living environment that can test one's patience and charity and 'holiness'.

I also disagree that one need be a victim of abuse to see an element of sexual self-gratification in a practice that stimulates the physical senses in an unnatural way. Pleasure and pain are very closely connected and denial of any sense can cause an increase in another - witness blind people usually being able to hear better than those with sight. I have personally never been abused in any way and yet I find some of these practices to be bordering on a pathway to sexual substitution/gratification. Sounds harsh, perhaps, but something to think about.

And although initially I had no objection to using the discipline in the convent, I later began to see it as a bizarre and out of date ritual, which only seemed even more peculiar because it was carried out in a pitch black room with the entire community. I can honestly say I never felt prayerful at this time (actually it was all very embarrassing) and certainly couldn't think of Jesus when I was listening to the sounds of 14 or so women whipping themselves in the dark to the recitation of the Miserere - I just waited for it to end. As a meditation technique, it was woeful, and as a mortification, well - apart from feeling like an idiot, I doubt that it increased my virtue orcourse.  

 

=========================

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion_in_the_Philippines 

Crucifixion in the Philippines is a devotional practice held every Good Friday, and are part of the local observance of Holy Week. Devotees or penitents called magdarame in Kapampanganare willingly crucified in imitation of Jesus Christ's suffering and death, while related practices are carry wooden crosses, crawling on rough pavement, and self-flagellation. Penitents considered these acts to be mortification of the flesh, and undertake these to ask forgiveness for sins, to fulfil a panatà (Filipino, "vow"), or to express gratitude for favours granted.

These customs are strongly discouraged by the Catholic Church in the Philippines, which considers them to be fanatical, superstitious expressions of Folk Catholicism and self-harm contrary to its teachings on the body. The Department of Health meanwhile often insists that participants in the rites should have tetanus shots and that the nails used should be sterilized.^[1]

 

 

I think the difference about the event in the Philippines is that it is not accepted by the Church... I tend to think things like the discipline are not in themselves ways of sexual gratification but there could be a temptationthat is separate from the act itself. For example there areSaints who didthese penances but had an extreme horror of anything unchaste. However I think in acommunity i would prefer anything like that done in ones cell and not together but thats just me! I think meditation on thePassion would be very important

[AccountDeleted]

Just out of interest, do Benedictine communities do these sorts of penances? I mean Benedictines in general not Cistercians.

Thanks for the replies to my question.  I see what you all are saying but I guess I dont really see these mortifications as something outdated. I wouldn't compare them to the enactment of the Crucifixion in the Philippines because that is discouraged by the Church while the other penances are allowed with prudence. I think the difference might be that they are done in moderation and not to injure the body. I certainly agree that it should only be done with direction, and that there can be various temptations. I also agree that spiritual mortification is safer and more difficult at the same time. I have never tried corporal mortification like that myself but I believe that accepting trials allowed by God and humiliations is safer spiritually and does a lot sanctification I wouldn't say that those who don't do these penances are less holy. But I don't think that they are wrong to do if done properly.  

I think the main point is that these particular types of mortifications (discipline and cilice for example) are too personal to make a blanket statement about them other than that they should only be done under spiritual direction or supervision of a religious superior. 

You say that these mortifications aren't outdated because they are still allowed by the Church with prudence. To me, that indicates in itself that they are outdated. The Church does not 'recommend' these practices, they 'allow' them, and they are not something that every community does these days, and in fact, more communities do not do them than do. In the Carmels that I have been in, only one still used the discipline and even then there were concerned about reactions to it. This is an indication to me that this particular penance might not have the efficacy that it once did - cultures and times change. 

As for the sexual gratification issue - I think you might have misunderstood what I was trying to say. The act of whipping oneself, of itself, is not necessarily a sexual one, and certainly nuns do not do this to try to achieve any kind of gratification. The opposite - they are trying to unite with a suffering Christ. The danger here is that it is a very physical act, and depending on how it is done, it can cause involuntary arousal - and that is why my Novice Mistress mentioned this to me. It certainly wasn't my idea, it was her warning.

As for whether or not you can do it in your cell alone or with others - that isn't your choice in a convent. One can imagine using it as St Teresa did in the fictionalized movie about her - on her shoulders, alone in her cell - it can all seem very romantic. But that was not the reality for me, which was that it was done in community,in the dark, and on a certain part of the bare anatomy that was not the shoulders. I did not feel holy doing it. And yet I was not given the choice as to which part of my body I would whip or where or what time or under what conditions. That was the real penance for me - the loss of freedom to make certain choices and decisions. Fortunately not all communities are as strict as that one was and many allow much more freedom of choice regarding certain things. But I can see why this could be a real issue for some applicants to religious life.

You say that these penances are not wrong if done properly. Just what constitutes properly is debatable though. One could say that if a community has done this particular penance for 100 years under the different Prioresses's direction, then it is done properly, but in my opinion, the way it was done was outdated and very similar to the Philippine 'folk Catholicism' with a total misunderstanding of the Church's teachings on the body. Just because something has always been done doesn't mean it always has to be done. 

So who defines proper? If one SD says you can whip yourself until you bleed, is that person correct? You are doing it under direction. There has to be a certain amount of common sense about such things, and since these practices open themselves to abuse, they are really less effective as penances than many other more sensible ones. After all, the method is not the goal, the result is. So if we can learn humility, charity and holiness through less bodily invasive methods, why not do so? In the end, we usually find that these methods are much harder in the long run because they involve a denial of self and a giving to others rather than just an act of self-harm to our bodies,which God created for us anyway! 

 

 

[marigold]

Good points, Nunsense.

[MarysLittleFlower]

Nunsense, I totally agree that the goal is not the method but the result. I guess for me I always struggle with the argument that something in the Church is outdated. I don't understand what this means.. I mean I tend to see it like everything we have in the Church that is devotional and approved can be used at any time. Maybe its because I came into the Church through older books and then found my spirituality in the Latin Mass... And a lot of my devotions are those that arent too popular today like the Holy Face devotion. Since so much in my spirituality could be considered not popular today, I find I struggle a bit with the argument of something being outdated. I tend to just ask - has it been approved. Apparently Pope JP2 did mortification - I don't know but in any case some today do - so I tend to treat it as traditionally has been... Fine to do if done with direction prudently humbly and of course one should stop if something happens like what you describe. I don't know... This is just my understanding! I see what you are trying to say... I guess I just struggle with the argument of something being outdated. God bless!

 

[beatitude]

Nunsense, I totally agree that the goal is not the method but the result. I guess for me I always struggle with the argument that something in the Church is outdated. I don't understand what this means.. I mean I tend to see it like everything we have in the Church that is devotional and approved can be used at any time. Maybe its because I came into the Church through older books and then found my spirituality in the Latin Mass... And a lot of my devotions are those that arent too popular today like the Holy Face devotion. Since so much in my spirituality could be considered not popular today, I find I struggle a bit with the argument of something being outdated. I tend to just ask - has it been approved. Apparently Pope JP2 did mortification - I don't know but in any case some today do - so I tend to treat it as traditionally has been... Fine to do if done with direction prudently humbly and of course one should stop if something happens like what you describe. I don't know... This is just my understanding! I see what you are trying to say... I guess I just struggle with the argument of something being outdated. God bless!

 

The Holy Face devotion isn't old. It only spread in the late 1800s, which makes it a pretty new way of prayer by the Church's 2000+-year-old standards. But the spirit of it - the focus on the incarnation of Christ, on his sacred and wounded humanity - goes all the way back to Mary's prayer at the moment of Gabriel's visit, and by the side of the crib in Bethlehem. People living in different places and at different times do not have exactly the same needs, so our faith finds different expressions according to what's needed. It's possible to see this in our own everyday lives. For example when I was working in a hospital ward for people with advanced dementia, I began to think more about heaven, and it affected the way I prayed. This was because I was working with people who were nearing the end of their lives, many of whom wanted to speak to me about that (one lady used to tell me "I want to go to the Lord" almost every day), and so I began to meditate on it and pray about it in a way I never had before. I'd never needed to before. We can see this on a bigger level as well: St Therese's 'Little Way' came along after the Jansenism that had harmed so many Christians by encouraging them to think about prayer in very legalistic terms and to trust too much in their own merits. The Little Way was badly needed at that time and it's no coincidence that St Therese began her mission then and not earlier or later. We will always feel drawn to different devotions according to our needs. I think this is what Nunsense meant.

The Church has always taught us to respect our bodies and not to inflict deliberate harm. In the past some people veered away from penance and into self-harm, and now the Church is very cautious with physical mortification because it's so easy for people to get drawn into these damaging habits. There are plenty of other ways to do penance that don't involve this risk. I shower in cold water on Fridays, which isn't pleasant, especially in winter. But it doesn't hurt me and I don't do it when I'm sick. I am also conscious that I am only doing what millions of people who lack heating, electricity, and proper sanitation have to do when they wash, and it reminds me to pray for them. I have found penance in my everyday routine. But I could never justify whipping myself, because this is going beyond mortification of the senses to causing actual hurt, and I don't see the point when daily life affords enough opportunities for self-denial and growth in faith anyway.

On a separate note - MarysLittleFlower, in the past you've mentioned that you were baptised as an Eastern Catholic. Presumably you must have received some teaching and guidance in Eastern spirituality before you were baptised. Do you still practise as an Eastern Catholic? I'm curious about many of the things you write, because your perspective on certain things is often quite different from how the Eastern Church would look at them. (I'm not saying that your perspective is wrong, just that it's not one I would associate with the East.)

Edited July 28, 2015 by beatitude