Mortification

[katherineH]

The monastic community I belonged to still practices the discipline, 3 days each week and every day in Lent.  They don't tell anyone beforehand, even postulants until their clothing.  They use a chain with 5 chains at the end.

This is really interesting to me, since it does provoke that "ha we gotcha!" reaction that other people are describing.  Do you know why the community does not disclose to discerners? Is it because they are afraid it will drive them away? Or mostly out of modesty (they don't want to broadcast their spiritual practices to the world)?

I feel very self-conscious about asking vocation directors about this, because I don't want to come across as condescending or judgmental if they do practice mortification...

[puellapaschalis]

I always just asked something like, "Do you still have the discipline?". But then I'm lacking in social graces

Edited July 22, 2015 by puellapaschalis

[veritasluxmea]

This is really interesting to me, since it does provoke that "ha we gotcha!" reaction that other people are describing.  Do you know why the community does not disclose to discerners? Is it because they are afraid it will drive them away? Or mostly out of modesty (they don't want to broadcast their spiritual practices to the world)?

I get the sense she was joking (although I may be wrong).

[katherineH]

I get the sense she was joking (although I may be wrong).

Ha I hope so! Miserere55, please illuminate us

[MarysLittleFlower]

Katherine, I never knew anyone still practiced physical mortification any more, and i was under the impression it was not allowed anymore.

But as for your fear as to entering a community and finding out later, that would be at least in my opinion rather on the underhanded side of not disclosing things; that is something rather major that people would need to know before entering, not a secret and like an ah ha gotcha now kind of thing.

Plus once you enter it isn't as if it is game over you are stuck, you have a long way to go before you take final vows so i would guess that with in the first 3 months of being in a community you are going to quickly find out if something doesn't add up and be able to leave freely with out causing a major scene in the community or being locked into a commitment.

Maybe different types of mortification on a lesser scale would be kneeling and sitting on things that are not cushioned or on the bare floor during times of prayer.

But i am interested to see what other say, and i hope you find some relief for your worries soon.

i was told it is allowed just must be done with direction, as actually before too. I don't think the teaching changed at all it might just be less common. It still happens, personally I don't have a problem with it, if someone does, maybe its something to bring up with a community? I don't know..

[vee]

anytime this subject comes up I cant help but think of this clip

[John Paul]

that is a odd penance.I would not like that and it looked like they were doing it in the streets and that way i would think one of them would get puffed up with pride thinkinh how the citizens must think how holy he is.Anyhoo I haven't heard of that penance.

[truthfinder]

that is a odd penance.I would not like that and it looked like they were doing it in the streets and that way i would think one of them would get puffed up with pride thinkinh how the citizens must think how holy he is.Anyhoo I haven't heard of that penance.

Umm, I think you're starting to show your age.  It's a spoof from Monty Python. 

[Sister Leticia]

Katherine - someone said early on that these penitential practices are more likely only to be found in monasteries following a stricter or more primitive version of their rule. Now, in another thread you said you were looking for a congregation "wearing habit, faithful to the church, educates their sisters, apostolic". I don't think any congregation like that would still practice corporal penances like taking the discipline. There might be other aspects of their lives which are physically penitential, though, such as plain food every day with hardly any sweets, or sleeping on mattresses on the floor as the CFRs do or a long, tiring day in a demanding apostolate - but that's different. And then there are what Sr Mary Catharine referred to as "interior mortifications", and all sorts of challenges, asceticisms and reminders of obedience - many little, interior ways to let God be God, without needing to go out and look for them!

But if you are called to a community you would receive the grace to live the life. That doesn't mean it would be easy - but it does mean God is faithful and will give you what you need to fulfil and flourish in what he has called you to.

The only other thing I would say is that it's good to look at where the anxiety comes from, and try to see what it's really all about and where it might be taking you.

 

[truthfinder]

I wanted to respond to the "aha gotcha" comment: hopefully this is clear, because sometimes I don't even understand what I'm saying.

Giving the full benefit of charity, I would think there might be a couple reasons a community might not tell a discerner about corporal mortification.  1. It can in some ways become an obsession for the discerner; just as another might be constantly concerned about how often they'd see their family, or if there are pets. 2. It invites all sort of weird curiosity by those who do not understand the purpose or the history of it. 3. It can be introduced as a just one of many facets of religious life.  Just as a nun might be slowly introduced to midnight risings (like one Poor Clare convent I know), it's introduced as part of the 'whole package' of religious life and thus becomes just a part of the spirituality. The Nashville Dominicans' website says (or at least used to) that they have various prayer traditions which you learn over the year, and which are meant to be kept private as a facet of their community. Communities not disclosing corporal mortification are probably thinking upon the same lines. 

I think if it is really a non-negotiable for you, you need to bring it up rather soon in your discussion with a community.  Any good community should address it directly when asked; at the same time you might not get details of what sort of penances they do.  In asking one community, the answer I received was that any penances done by the sisters were tempered by charity and prudence - for me, that was a sufficient answer.  If such an answer is not for you, move on to the next community. 

[Benedictus]

Why are you so against mortifications? They're not meant to harm you or scar you, just be uncomfortable or annoying as a means of purification. Most communities, especially monastic ones, have some sort of practice. This can be things such as bowing, kneeling down, missing a meal, eating alone etc. Opus Dei uses a chain, mostly by numeraries, for a period each day under supervision. But it's more regular to have cold showers, sleep on the floor at certain times, abstain from certain foods or to not use a pillow etc. I have friends from University who belong to them and it's nothing sinister.  A community may well think you naive, immature or unsuited if you ask questions that seem like you want a comfortable life without mortifications to help train you. So I'd think about how you ask and be wary of saying you'd not join if they do certain things in a blanket way without seeking to know more about it.

Edited July 24, 2015 by Benedictus

[SNJM]

An interesting "trend" I've encountered in my SD with those discerners I work with - communities seem to be much more forthright right away about physical mortification (like the old penances we are talking about). It seems they have had women enter who were either completely freaked out or uncomfortable and as a result, they now disclose it immediately. And yes, the communities I personally know who practice this tend to be reformed, primitive Communities, though the Passionists practice corporeal mortification & I'm not sure they would fit in that category!

I found TradMom's list a while ago and use it - to whoever reminded us of it, thanks. Great considerations & questions.

All in all, whatever it might be - ask! They are asking millions about you - please do not downplay your role in this process!

Rose

 

[truthfinder]

 though the Passionists practice corporeal mortification & I'm not sure they would fit in that category!

 

 

There was an article done several years ago that discussed the Passionists' use of the discipline.  However, the Whitesville Passionists (perhaps the best known on PM) have been rather forthcoming on their website that they do not use the discipline. 

[AccountDeleted]

Why are you so against mortifications? They're not meant to harm you or scar you, just be uncomfortable or annoying as a means of purification. Most communities, especially monastic ones, have some sort of practice. This can be things such as bowing, kneeling down, missing a meal, eating alone etc. Opus Dei uses a chain, mostly by numeraries, for a period each day under supervision. But it's more regular to have cold showers, sleep on the floor at certain times, abstain from certain foods or to not use a pillow etc. I have friends from University who belong to them and it's nothing sinister.  A community may well think you naive, immature or unsuited if you ask questions that seem like you want a comfortable life without mortifications to help train you. So I'd think about how you ask and be wary of saying you'd not join if they do certain things in a blanket way without seeking to know more about it.

I humbly disagree Ben. A community will not think you naive, immature or unsuited for asking perfectly sensible questions. If it doesn't understand the reasons for asking, then perhaps it is more cult-like than community like and one should be wary of 'warning, danger, Will Robinson' signs. Any issue should be able to be discussed with someone who is hoping to enter for life (not simply a curious bystander).

I personally know of communities that do use the discipline as part of their routine. In one, I did not know at the time I entered that they used it,  but was made aware while still a postulant,when I was handed a discipline in a small bag and told what to do. The Prioress then asked me if I thought they should tell candidates about this prior to entering or not - she was very sincerely trying to do what was right. She said they prefer to keep these things private, within the community, so had never told anyone before, but she understood that in today's climate, it could be a serious issue for some women, especially as some forms of physical mortification could possibly be considered sexually arousing. I was instructed by my Novice Mistress that if this occurred at any time, I was to immediately cease the use of the discipline and speak to her about it at a later date. I suggested to the Prioress that if a woman was seriously discerning with them, they should let her know at some point before she entered about this practice. To my knowledge, she did so from then on as it was a deal breaker for some women.

There were certainly other mortifications in all of the convents, such as kneeling on wood floors, using cold water etc,but I doubt these are really serious issues for most women. The use of physical items to cause bodily distress (such as the discipline or the cilice) however, can raise concerns unless they are explained properly and used appropriately so as not to cause actual physical harm to the body. The discipline was explained to me as more of a symbol of unity with Christ's whipping, rather than an actual instrument of physical punishment, but one only has to watch the Da Vinci Code to see such a practice carried not only to excess, but to extremely dangerous limits. And yes, I know this is fiction, but people who carry things to extremes can be found in any walk of life.

If a person doesn't feel free to ask a community anything prior to entering (that impacts on their well-being, then this would be a cause of concern in my mind.

Edited July 25, 2015 by nunsense

[Sr Mary Catharine OP]

I wouldn't think someone was immature or naive if she asked what our practices of mortification are. For myself, I have never been attracted to communities that engage in external "artificial" mortifications. After nearly 25 years of monastic life I can honestly say that those are much easier than the things are a part of everyday monastic life and the challenge to be faithful doesn't get any easier! I talked to the older sisters who did do external mortifications and they said the same thing.