Mortification

[katherineH]

Confession: I have a serious fear of entering a community and finding out afterwards that they practice mortification of the flesh (not as in fasting, more like chains and flagellation).  I know the Missionaries of Charity practice daily mortification, and this is a spiritual discipline that I would be very reluctant to participate in, even though I recognize its sanctifying attributes for some people.  Have any of you had experiences with communities that practiced mortification? How common do you think it is?

[superblue]

Katherine, I never knew anyone still practiced physical mortification any more, and i was under the impression it was not allowed anymore.

But as for your fear as to entering a community and finding out later, that would be at least in my opinion rather on the underhanded side of not disclosing things; that is something rather major that people would need to know before entering, not a secret and like an ah ha gotcha now kind of thing.

Plus once you enter it isn't as if it is game over you are stuck, you have a long way to go before you take final vows so i would guess that with in the first 3 months of being in a community you are going to quickly find out if something doesn't add up and be able to leave freely with out causing a major scene in the community or being locked into a commitment.

Maybe different types of mortification on a lesser scale would be kneeling and sitting on things that are not cushioned or on the bare floor during times of prayer.

But i am interested to see what other say, and i hope you find some relief for your worries soon.

[katherineH]

Thanks for the encouragement! From what I've gathered, mortification for lay people is only to be done with the supervision and counsel of a spiritual director.  I recently read a memoir by a former Missionary of Charity where she described her mortification.  Opus Dei is fairly transparent about theirs but I don't think it involves flagellation, only wearing a chain around their thigh for a few hours a day.

[John Paul]

If you want to avoid it don't join a monastery that went back to their  primitive constitution.

Now it is mostly like kneeling in the middl eof the church aisle for the lenghth of a Hail Mary when you are wait for prayer.

Edited July 22, 2015 by John Paul

[vee]

Ask them.  I always refer people to this thread, especially Tradmom's psot about ten posts down.  Her list of questions and considerations is epic and has helped me so much!  One of them is asking if they practice corporal mortification.  I wouldnt make it one of the first things you ask but get to know them a bit first.   When you feel comfortable with a Sister then ask her.

[:o)Katherine:o)]

Ask them.  I always refer people to this thread, especially Tradmom's psot about ten posts down.  Her list of questions and considerations is epic and has helped me so much!  One of them is asking if they practice corporal mortification.  I wouldnt make it one of the first things you ask but get to know them a bit first.   When you feel comfortable with a Sister then ask her.

Thank you for the link Vee! I found many of Tradmoms points to be very good. Will definitely refer to it the next time I talk with a vocation director! 

[Credo in Deum]

Is it common for communities that practice corporal mortification to start their novices out with hard penances?  I would assume that even in such communities that the superiors would determine, based on your formation, whether or not you are ready for such mortifications. 

[veritasluxmea]

If you joined and then found out that they did that, you'd want to leave anyway, not because they flag themselves but because concealing information of that type is not a good sign for a community! Like SB said, it's not an aha, gottcha now! kind of thing.

Also, I'd be wary of a memoir written by a former MC. There's only one out there that I know of and she is a rather shady source of information. If anyone has a question about that please feel free to PM me. 

[Orans]

Confession: I have a serious fear of entering a community and finding out afterwards that they practice mortification of the flesh (not as in fasting, more like chains and flagellation).  I know the Missionaries of Charity practice daily mortification, and this is a spiritual discipline that I would be very reluctant to participate in, even though I recognize its sanctifying attributes for some people.  Have any of you had experiences with communities that practiced mortification? How common do you think it is?

As others have said, this needs to be talked with the community, and probably sooner rather than later -in your case.

But once that is said, it might be good also to pray about that fear and look at it from a more distanced perspective.

Fear never comes from God. Could this be the crack from where the enemy is trying to get at you and discourage you as you are taking the first steps towards following the call you are experiencing? If he success he wins big ... and you lose huge.

Praying about this, and truly bringing this to God asking for strength and courage -as needed- and also for guidance as you search for a community, will certainly help you to find a Grace where there is a challenge.

From my experience, I don't think that there are many active communities that use corporal penance anymore unless they are specifically penitential, but I'm not sure especially among new communities. In any case the question I think, would be to know if they have bodily penance written down as an article or mandate in their Constitutions, Statutes, or Customs. If this is the case, you know that it is not the community for you. But it might be that they don't have it mandatory although they allow Sisters who request permission, to do it.

This last case is different, and I would say that you don't need to make of it a big deal if they don't have that kind of penance as mandatory. 

[Spem in alium]

I agree with previous posters: mortification of this kind is something that needs to be disclosed, not simply brought out after the person has entered. It is something you could ask about if you are a bit anxious.

[John Paul]

Redo:

Now it is mostly like kneeling in the church aisle for the  lenghth of a hail mary if you are late for prayer.

[katherineH]

If you joined and then found out that they did that, you'd want to leave anyway, not because they flag themselves but because concealing information of that type is not a good sign for a community! Like SB said, it's not an aha, gottcha now! kind of thing.

Also, I'd be wary of a memoir written by a former MC. There's only one out there that I know of and she is a rather shady source of information. If anyone has a question about that please feel free to PM me. 

I'm guessing we are both speaking about "An Unquenchable Thirst" - I read it recently and found it to be quite intriguing, even though Mary Johnson made more than one questionable decision during her formation and time as a sister.  During several parts, I found it hard to be compassionate towards her given that she so strongly instigated the dramas she found found herself in.  But I also thought it raised interesting aspects about religious life - notably how the vow of obedience prevented her from speaking out against superiors that were abusing their authority, and how she virtually had no idea what she was getting herself into when she entered.  What are your thoughts on it?

[Sr Mary Catharine OP]

Katherine, we all have one fear or another that seems to stand out in our minds as we discern. This is why you need to ask these questions of the communities you are discerning with. And yes, some communities still practice such corporal mortifications as the discipline. From what the Sisters here have told me isn't not that bad and in fact, I have been told that it is the interior mortifications that are more difficult and that I can totally understand.

Usually a community introduces a new sister into the mortification gradually.

If God is calling you to a specific place you realize that even if you aren't looking forward to certain aspects of the life on a human level, on a supernatural level it doesn't matter because you feel so impelled to enter there.

Interestingly the spell check doesn't recognize mortification in the plural!

[miserere55]

The monastic community I belonged to still practices the discipline, 3 days each week and every day in Lent.  They don't tell anyone beforehand, even postulants until their clothing.  They use a chain with 5 chains at the end.

[veritasluxmea]

flag

I meant flog. Flag, where did that come from? lol. 

But I also thought it raised interesting aspects about religious life - notably how the vow of obedience prevented her from speaking out against superiors that were abusing their authority, and how she virtually had no idea what she was getting herself into when she entered.  What are your thoughts on it?

There is a way to legitimately criticize religious orders. It's important for discerners to know new orders are still undergoing a lot of change, especially those that expand rapidly, and this order was formed in an Indian culture, which means they won't apply the American values of transparency, individualism, and communication the same way we do. Undoubtedly there will be issues and rough patches (as with any new order), and I think some (most?) of her experiences are good things for people to be aware of as being a part of the order's past and possibly something that might be a concern nowadays. Maybe so, maybe not- one would have to visit and find out for themselves, I don't know any MCs.

However, she is such a shady source it's hard for "newbies" to discern in her book what's helpful and what's not. I really think only people who have been well formed in understanding religious life- including its problems- and are experienced in understanding the relationship between a person, a religious order, and society, and how sin and bad experiences influences someone's perception and narration, can really draw value from it. And if you know that, why bother with the book? Frankly, imho don't read this book if you are under 25 and discerning religious life, period. There are other, better ways to become aware of issues with new orders and the MCs. Some people may have a better understanding of it and disagree with me, so also consider that. Just a caution from me!