Love thy Enemy

[Gabriela]

I spoke to the theologian today. He said that he couldn't find anywhere it was mentioned that St. Dominic prayed for the devil, but he wouldn't be surprised because saints sometimes do "crazy things like that" (his words—amesome theologian, love the guy).

HOWEVER, he did say that to believe that the devil can be saved is essentially to believe the Origenist heresy, and it is thus both wrong and pointless to pray for the devil, although it is not a sin if one is not aware of the doctrine.

As a proviso, he qualified that it may be acceptable to pray "for the devil" if one words the prayer not for the devil's salvation, but for, say, "the devil's effects to be minimized" or some such.

So it is possible that when I read (which I'm still pretty sure I did) that "St. Dominic prayed for the devil", it was simply poorly worded and he simply prayed for him to be made ineffective or something.

In sum, @Nihil Obstat was right and I was kinda' wrong. No surprise there. I stand corrected!

[Kia ora]

Not to mention completely pointless.

prayer is just as much a means to change oneself as it is to change another (or the world). if one prays for another person's safety and turning to the good, even if that person will never come around, it changes you into the kind of person who would pray for another person's safety and turning to the good, even if that person will never come around. that's enough. 

love really doesn't have a point. love is the most pointless thing there. 

as that great dominican teacher meister eckhart once said, die Liebe hat kein Warum.

[Credo in Deum]

prayer is just as much a means to change oneself as it is to change another (or the world). if one prays for another person's safety and turning to the good, even if that person will never come around, it changes you into the kind of person who would pray for another person's safety and turning to the good, even if that person will never come around. that's enough. 

love really doesn't have a point. love is the most pointless thing there. 

as that great dominican teacher meister eckhart once said, die Liebe hat kein Warum.

Love does have a point, that point is God.  Praying for the devil, however, does not have a point because praying for the devil is not love, but delusion. 

[Kia ora]

Love does have a point, that point is God.  Praying for the devil, however, does not have a point because praying for the devil is not love, but delusion. 

Love is its own point, because God is love. In that sense, love is pointless, because it has no reason or rhyme other than itself. It is entirely gratuitous, that means NON NECESSARY, freely given, a gift, grace. Someone who loves the Devil is like God who loved humanity. There's no reason why God loves us. He just does. That's his nature.

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

The Church does teach, I am sure, that Satan and the fallen angels, those already in Hell, cannot be redeemed.

I didn't realize Satan, the false prophet, the anti Christ and the army of the anti Christ where already in hell. Some believe prophecy is a warning to repent not something that is going to happen without a doubt but will happen if there is no repentance.

We can certainly (and should) pray for people who have done despicable things during this life.  We are not privy to their judgement; but praying for Satan is misguided, as Nihil has pointed out, because of the angelic nature of knowledge.  Satan made his decision once and for all.

Is the doctrine of satans irrevocable choice a matter of infallible faith and morals? Or even worse is it just popular culture? If it's not an infallible statement birthed from the universal magesterium or ex cathedra than it is open to debate and interpretation by the faithful.

 of course in the pursuit of truth and discovering what any document outside of the infallible ones is actually pointing toward. Idk, i still haven't been proven that without a doubt i should believe all church documents and various statements as being infallible.

Edited August 2, 2015 by Tab'le De'Bah-Rye

[Credo in Deum]

Love is its own point, because God is love. In that sense, love is pointless, because it has no reason or rhyme other than itself. It is entirely gratuitous, that means NON NECESSARY, freely given, a gift, grace. Someone who loves the Devil is like God who loved humanity. There's no reason why God loves us. He just does. That's his nature.

God loves us because He sees His image in us. Therefore He did not creat us for no reason.  He who is Love created us in His image, so that we might choose to love Him who is Love itself. If our existence was caused by something pointless, there would be no conditions for our existence and no reason for our existence. Yet we know this is not true because our purpose for existing is to love, honor, and serve God.

Also, someone who loves the devil is not like God, because God only loves that which shows Himself. While God loves all of the beings He created, we must understand God did not create the devil.  God created Lucifer, and Lucifer rejected God and became the devil.  By his free choice He separated himself from the Love of God by removing the image of God from himself.  This is why God does not love the devil, because the devil has no room for Him, "There is no room in the Inn." 

Likewise, we therefore do not pray for the devil, because there is no Love (no image of God) in him! If we love that which does have God's image then our love is pointless, void of God.   Yet with our fellow man, regardless of how evil they are, we still pray for them, because there still exists in them the image of God.  This is also why they are always deserving of our love and why we are obligated to love them.  If by some divine revelation though we were given to know that they are in hell, then we are not bound to love them at all.  If we continued to love them, then our love would not be love, but delusion. Delusions are pointless. 

[MarysLittleFlower]

interesting responses thus far, i am still unsure.... what i can say is I honestly do not have it in me to pray for the conversion of those the likes of ISIS, Al etc cant spell it/ I mean we still have Moses and his staff, when ever it was up, his side was winning, etc..........

and bleh,  i guess also, does not praying for our enemy go against us in some manner ? 

 

And Exactly S. O. V   Jesus kicking everyone out of the temple..... do we say ah ha a contradiction or do we turn around an say no no that is just " tough love " ?

I just find this all some what confusing to the degree of big enemies, those committing horrible crimes, etc.... little enemies, like a horrible boss, neighbors etc.... that isn't too terribly hard to get to the point.

we pray for our enemies because Jesus died for them too. Its not going against us because if they convert there would be peace

imagine the most corrupt person.

One day God made them and this soul is unique and He died for this soul. It can never be replaced. This person went down the wrong path and Jesus is longing to forgive them and it is a great suffering for Him to not be able to because they are unrepentant.

Picture them as a child... When they were born... Jesus would have died for just that one.

If seeing them doesn't move to pity, think of Our Lord suffering, pity Him and it will be easier to pray for an enemy

our real enemy is sin.

 

Thank you, Gabriela.  Your post has rested a bit of a concern of mine since during my serious active-illness days, I would pray very ardently indeed for Satan and its helpers, those in Hell.  

 

Must agree, superblue, that you do sound particularly angry and resentful in your post..........'venting your spleen' (in a foul mood).  It happens!  I have long thought that Jesus was 'venting his spleen' and in a foul mood when he cursed the poor fig tree.

Matthew 21:19
And seeing a certain fig tree by the way side, he came to it, and found nothing on it but leaves only, and he saith to it: May no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And immediately the fig tree withered away.

Jesus was walking along and was hungry and sighted a fig tree, anticipating I suppose, figs to eat.  Arriving at the tree, He finds no frujit at all only leaves and so He cursed the tree and it withered away.  What on earth had the poor fig tree done to deserve such a fate?

i don't believe Our Lord is governed by moods  I researched this tree. It was supposed to have fruit at that time and one of those fig trees in the Gospels (maybe this one) had a type of leaf or something indicating it does have fruit but then it didn't! Its a symbol probably for people like Pharisees who act like they have fruit but then don't. 

Edited August 3, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower

[MarysLittleFlower]

God loves us because He sees His image in us. Therefore He did not creat us for no reason.  He who is Love created us in His image, so that we might choose to love Him who is Love itself. If our existence was caused by something pointless, there would be no conditions for our existence and no reason for our existence. Yet we know this is not true because our purpose for existing is to love, honor, and serve God.

Also, someone who loves the devil is not like God, because God only loves that which shows Himself. While God loves all of the beings He created, we must understand God did not create the devil.  God created Lucifer, and Lucifer rejected God and became the devil.  By his free choice He separated himself from the Love of God by removing the image of God from himself.  This is why God does not love the devil, because the devil has no room for Him, "There is no room in the Inn." 

Likewise, we therefore do not pray for the devil, because there is no Love (no image of God) in him! If we love that which does have God's image then our love is pointless, void of God.   Yet with our fellow man, regardless of how evil they are, we still pray for them, because there still exists in them the image of God.  This is also why they are always deserving of our love and why we are obligated to love them.  If by some divine revelation though we were given to know that they are in hell, then we are not bound to love them at all.  If we continued to love them, then our love would not be love, but delusion. Delusions are pointless. 

I see what you are saying and I agree its pointless to pray for the devil. he can't repent. But is it OK to grieve over people being in hell? I always understood it like when a soul is lost, Jesus grieves for their loss especially as He died for them, - for the loss of the image He gave them and the love He wanted to put in them. Its not a love for who they are now but for what He intended. Its actually so sad is that OK to think??

I realize who He intended them to be isn't the reality now so He doesn't love who they are and they are judged and cast out. But is it OK tothink of Our Lord's suffering in this way? It's a love for the will He had for them perhaps. A love in truth for what was good.. Though now its lost so there's no more good to love and there's no love for who their present self is in eternity. 

As for praying for sinners... I would pray for any sinner on earth. I don't pray for anyone in hell human or fallen angel. Its pointless and also there's no good in them to love. I'm just wondering if its OK to love the good God intended - I mean yes its good but is it OK to think of it and love it now, since its lost? I realize God sees these souls as devoid of any good and they rejected His plan... How does He see His original plan for them now? 

[MarysLittleFlower]

Edit: I wanted to edit my paragraph but can't anymore... Here's an edited paragraph:

 I always understood it like when a soul is lost, Jesus grieves for their loss especially as He died for them, - for the loss of the image He gave them and the love He wanted to put in them. Its not a love for who they are now but grief for what He intended that now doesn't exist. Its actually so sad  is that OK to think?? I know Jesus is perfectly happy in Heaven. I mean how He told the Saints of His suffering in some mysterious way. Does He love them in this way which is not a love for them now but a love for His Will?