Love thy Enemy

[superblue]

Love thy Enemy ; just one of many sayings by Our Lord that turned society upside down.I have been mulling it around lately,  on a small scale it is not very difficult to grasp. It may be difficult to put into practice though.   On a bigger level though in regards to war, the catechist already addresses such things which is " just war " ( CCC 2302-2317 ). To me ,  it is coming across slightly as an oxymoron.  Does Christ make an exception as the Catechist does when he says to Love thy Enemy ?

The old testament we see time and again when people have prayed to God for victory in a conflict / war.

To instances in WWII of Clergy and Religious praying for those Nazis' convicted of war crimes.

But today, from 9/11 to the present,  how do we truly pray for the conversion of those who are killing Christians and others world wide ? And mean it ! An in the same token, pray for the violence to stop with out using violence to stop them ?

We know Christ can accomplish this, that is easy enough for Him and God to do, but our limited selves are called to be like Christ and to do the actual work.....So if we should not pray that our enemies be destroyed ( at least groups like ISIS and A. Q ( cant spell it ) } is praying for our military service members to be successful in essence still praying for the destruction of our enemy ?

More over, would today God even consider listening to our prayers of wanting our enemies destroyed ?

Is what Christ said, Love thy Enemy : literal , or is it up for interpretation ?

[Not The Philosopher]

We should of course pray for the conversion of those who do evil.

When it comes to violent aggressors, self-defense or the defense of others entrusted to our care sometimes requires the use of lethal force. That is different from actively willing their destruction.

Example: someone is trying to kill a child. You shoot him. It turns out that he's still alive, but is now incapacitated. If you then turn him over to the law, you've done your duty of protecting the innocent. Even if the shot had killed him, it would have only been a regrettable effect that you wouldn't be responsible for. But if, after incapacitating him, you then proceed to vengefully shoot him in the head, you're a murderer. Because in that case, your intention wasn't "protect the kid," anymore, it was, "I'm gonna kill this guy."

[MarysLittleFlower]

Good question... The way I understood it is this .. Im not sure if I'm totally correct but it seems to make sense. Would we have war without original sin? No. So its from the fall. I think we should try as hard as we can to have peace. But if you tried all you can and the other side STILL attacks, then its a just war for you to defend yourself.

I got this idea when I saw a movie about St Joan of Arc.. The one with Ingrid Bergman which is the best one IMO. She didn't want to initially have war.. But the English didn't want to listen and she was forced to. She wept afterwards seeing all the killed. So its almost like... Just war is a form of self defense??

Ideally we should have peace. I'm actually not a supporter of having war. But if you tried everything and this army is attacking and killing your people then its just war to defend them. Am I right?? But I don't see it as something that is ideal because without the fall we wouldn't have it.

We should try all peaceful actions first so the war isnt your fault if it happens, but because the other side is so agressive. We should pray for them to stop... God loves both peoples and doesnt wish for them to fight in His direct Will, rather its something thats permitted.

As to the OT, I think much of it was to make sure the chosen people survive and also this was before Christ, and God revealed things slowly...it reflects the situation of the times.

 There were things that were different. Its hard to compare today to the OT. One reason was hardness of heart and not being ready for the full truth. Like they had divorce and the idea - an eye for an eye .. Now mercy is emphasised and we have FULLNESS of truth.

However there were times God allowed the war to protect His chosen people and it was like a form of just war to make sure they survive... And other things maybe the people decided without God telling them to do it.

Today wars are like chastisements but just war is still allowed even now in the new Covenant... I see it like self defense and attacking a country for money is NOT a just war. I think just war is very rare. 

We should of course pray for the conversion of those who do evil.

When it comes to violent aggressors, self-defense or the defense of others entrusted to our care sometimes requires the use of lethal force. That is different from actively willing their destruction.

Example: someone is trying to kill a child. You shoot him. It turns out that he's still alive, but is now incapacitated. If you then turn him over to the law, you've done your duty of protecting the innocent. Even if the shot had killed him, it would have only been a regrettable effect that you wouldn't be responsible for. But if, after incapacitating him, you then proceed to vengefully shoot him in the head, you're a murderer. Because in that case, your intention wasn't "protect the kid," anymore, it was, "I'm gonna kill this guy."

I agree... Brutality happens too much in war for this reason. Like torture of people or killing unarmed civilians - that's not self defense. 

[BarbTherese]

I tend to agree in that we have "Thou shalt not kill" and also "Love your enemy".  I think it reflects that we are imperfect creatures living in an imperfect world (original sin) and sometimes we can be in a "damned if you do and damned if you don't" situation - or Catch 22.  Life might sometimes not be a clear and distinct choice between a good or an evil, but a choice between the lesser of two evils.  I don't think that deliberate harm or killing can ever be called a good under any circumstances.  We can rejoice that The Lord understands our dilemmas at times and with All Embracing Love and Mercy and we are humbled.

[Didacus]

Consider it this way:

A father has two sons fighting each other. Will the father be content that one of the two sons win the fight by killing his brother?

[BarbTherese]

Consider it this way:

A father has two sons fighting each other. Will the father be content that one of the two sons win the fight by killing his brother?

..............and your answer is?

Bit slower than usual today.  I have got your meaning now.

[Didacus]

..............and your answer is?

Bit slower than usual today.  I have got your meaning now.

now you must consider what the mother would want

[BarbTherese]

 

And what would mother and father want if one son intended to kill the other as well as the whole family.   As I said in my previous quote sometimes life is not a choice between clear good and evil, but the lesser of two evils.

Edited July 19, 2015 by BarbaraTherese

[AccountDeleted]

We know what Jesus would do - He did it. He loved His enemy and let Himself be killed while still loving them.

But I doubt that few of us are able to do what He did. It is the ideal though.

[beatitude]

 

So if we should not pray that our enemies be destroyed ( at least groups like ISIS and A. Q ( cant spell it ) } is praying for our military service members to be successful in essence still praying for the destruction of our enemy ?

More over, would today God even consider listening to our prayers of wanting our enemies destroyed ?

Is what Christ said, Love thy Enemy : literal , or is it up for interpretation ?

I think we should pray for what we know to be good - for conversion of heart (our own and our enemies'), for the safety of people who are under threat, for the establishment of peace and justice. For me it is easier to do this if I can pray for someone by name, so I followed the example of St Therese de Lisieux and 'adopted' an IS member whose name I had read in the news, and I began to pray for her daily just as I do for my family members and friends. I could not pray for a soldier to be successful in killing her any more than I could pray for the death of a friend, but I can pray for her to abandon evil.

Some advice of Bl. Charles de Foucauld is also applicable here. He wrote that in his morning prayers he made sure to ask for everyone else what he asked for himself. If he were praying to be made more generous, for example, he would include others in that petition. I find that this is a way to stay humble and to remind ourselves that all the faults we see in others are also present in ourselves. So when I ask for God to pull IS members away from evil, I must also remember to ask the same for myself - and as I don't want to be killed for my sin, I can hardly start praying that they be killed for theirs.

[BarbTherese]

I agree with what beatitude has stated.

Have watched a couple of documentaries on the middle east.  It is such a confusing type of war for a variety of reasons and not a type of war with which our own soldiers are familiar - I.e. confusing not only to us but to our soldiers training middle eastern solders as well and often due to real tension between factions of Islam.  Just one example is where coalition troops were training Afghanistan soldiers and relayed instructions to them to prepare to go out on patrol later in the day.  When the coalition arrived, the Afghanistan troops were not prepared(some were asleep) and refused to go because they would only follow the orders of their particular religious leader.   I think we need to pray too for a diplomatic solution in the middle east somehow.  Prior to 9/11, I recall reading in Time Magazine that the reason there was no free world challenge to Suddam Hussein in any way was because it might destabilize the middle east.  It has!

We know that Jesus died for His enemies as well.  And we know that not to kill under any circumstances is the ideal and never ever can be a good.  Where war is concerned, it is often one faction defending itself against an aggressor intent on killing - and killing on a mass scale.  The defender goes to war not to protect the life of one person but the lives of many and many who are completely innocent and to protect them and themselves will need to kill.  This is not the ideal nor a good in any way!  Life at times can be complicated and not straightforward and hence at times we are not faced with a simple choice between good and evil, but to choose the lesser of two evils.  We are fallen creatures in a fallen world. We need absolutely the Love and Mercy of Our God and consistently.  "Be ye perfect as Your Heavenly Father is Perfect".  It is impossible without His Love and His Mercy.

[BarbTherese]

Edit /Correction: "And we know that not to kill under any circumstances is the ideal and never ever can be a good"  Should read........."And we know that not to kill under any circumstances is the ideal and that to kill can never ever be a good"

My personal thoughts are that The Church has the God given right to declare a "just war" and the conditions for it............ "Whatever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in Heaven". ............ However, I don't think in this instance that just and good can be used interchangeably, save in the instance of Just(ice) and Good(ness) or God Himself.

 

Edited July 19, 2015 by BarbaraTherese

[SaintOfVirtue]

Whenever I need to "turn the other cheek" I calmly put on my Jesus face, get out my whip of cords, and start flipping tables.


But in all seriousness I believe the "turn the other cheek" is meant to apply to those offenses which are against a person's ego rather than their physical health and well-being.

[superblue]

interesting responses thus far, i am still unsure.... what i can say is I honestly do not have it in me to pray for the conversion of those the likes of ISIS, Al etc cant spell it/ I mean we still have Moses and his staff, when ever it was up, his side was winning, etc..........

and bleh,  i guess also, does not praying for our enemy go against us in some manner ? 

 

And Exactly S. O. V   Jesus kicking everyone out of the temple..... do we say ah ha a contradiction or do we turn around an say no no that is just " tough love " ?

I just find this all some what confusing to the degree of big enemies, those committing horrible crimes, etc.... little enemies, like a horrible boss, neighbors etc.... that isn't too terribly hard to get to the point.

[Gabriela]

@superblue: If you find it difficult to pray for those you hate, then pray for more capacity to love.

Your posts lately have all been pretty angry. You start threads railing against a different group of people every day. Now you start one asking if it's okay to pray for the destruction of those you hate. It sounds like you have a lot of hate. God can fix that if you ask Him to—if you want Him to.

St. Dominic prayed for the devil himself.

THAT'S Christian.