Disturbing Bible Passages

[tinytherese]

My brother is really struggling with certain Bible passages like how God flooded the earth in the time of Noah and ordered the Jews to murder entire populations of people so that they could own Israel. I've found a book that explains better than I could the four senses of Scripture, (The BIble Compass by Sri,) but do you know any sources for specifically explaining disturbing passages like these that make God look like a monster?

[Guest]

Struggled with this too. Although the flood never happened. So it makes it easier to question the other things too. The Old Testament is great but Jesus is my God. He's love. I'm glad the Catholic Church does a good job of making that the focus. 

[Credo in Deum]

Most of these passages look disturbing because we live in a different time, one of luxury and "civilized" behaviors. In truth what we're living in are worse times because back then people were killing the body.  Nowadays they want to murder the soul, but since it doesnt look as bad we are indifferent to it, but I digress.  The problem is he is taking his way of life and judging the events based on his current enviornment. He never knew what it was like to live in a tribal society with no tv, internet, policemen, or counslors.  He doesn't know what its like to be born into an enviornment where there are other people who want him and his family dead just for being born from his mother and father.  He doesn't understand that in the old days, especially with tribes, killing just the male soliders did not extinguish the threat to ones life and family.  The opposing tribes families would raise their future children to grow up hating the rival tribes. Most of the time the only solutions which were available were to either enslave the opposing tribe or kill them.  The times were so different if any of us lived during that time we would deffinantely be in the same mess, and fighting the same wars.  Heck we probably would have been worse which is why God, in His mercy, willed that we live in during this time.  In the end there is going to be no way to force your brother to understand these things.  You're just going to have to pray that he is open to your explination and thinks about it.

Regardless in the end parents are always going to be looked at as monsters when they discipline their children. Like when our parents disciplined us we didnt understand why, so we assumed our parents were being malicious when in reality they weren't.  They were looking out for our future, and thinking of what will happen to us as adults if we do not undergo needed discipline.  Most forget God is concerned with our eternal futures and that sometimes we have to suffer the pain of loss of this life in order to secure them.  God however is good and does not permit these things if He cannot bring about a greater good.  In the Bible this is shown in the story of Joseph being sold by his own brothers, Daniel and the lions den, etc etc but most of all it is realized in the Person of Jesus Christ whom the Father permitted that He undergo a Passion and Death for you, me, your brother, and everyone who has, and ever will, live on this planet.

Edited July 16, 2015 by Credo in Deum

[Gabriela]

Although the flood never happened.

Wait. What?

in the old days, especially with tribes, killing just the male soliders did not extinguish the threat to ones life and family.  The opposing tribes families would raise their future children to grow up hating the rival tribes. Most of the time the only solutions which were available were to either enslave the opposing tribe or kill them.

Actually, it still is this way in some places. @tinytherese: Just tell your brother to look at the situation in the Middle East, where war never ends because of this problem precisely.

[Peace]

Tiny:

I also struggle with those passages as well and I don't know if the Church has a well-developed theology concerning them (if anyone is aware of it please point me in the right direction of where to look).

People have began to write about it in recent years though. I have not read it - but I came across a book recently by Matthew Ramage called "Dark passages of the Bible: Engaging scripture with Benedict XVI & Thomas Aquinas". Another book I have heard of is called "Is God a Moral Monster - Making Sense of the Old Testament God" by Paul Copan. Maybe you might want to check them out.

[superblue]

Tiny, i wish ya were in my class today ! we were just going over Pslams and how there are " cursed pslams " and even one pslam that we actually read allowed psalm 58, and it made me nausious . I couldn't believe we actually said it outloud , and here is the kicker, Love thy Enemy, so we are not supposed to evidently translate these troubling psalms into prayers against our enemies, and not just people we don't like but actual horrible people, terrorists, etc..... so then exactly how do we as Catholics / Christians translate at least on a spiritual level these psalms / scripture versuses. ....

 

some of it is translated or rather can be translated as a way to treat our vices , our sins, our temptations...

the rest, can be a bit hard, but not impossible to make sense out of , but it takes time and patience, and a willing heart to be able to accept the Word.

[Amppax]

I'd highly recommend Dark Passages of the Bible: Engaging Scripture with Benedict XVI and St. Thomas Aquinas by Matthew J. Ramage. Probably the best treatment of this topic available. 

If you buy it, make sure to use the Phatmass amazon link! (that's still a thing, right?) 

[julianneoflongbeach]

Maybe I'm a monster too, but I don't have any problem with the "OT" God or all the "dark" stuff that went down. My understanding is that God Himself allowed and ordered people to die because the gates of Heaven weren't open yet. All those people, they were either going to hell or purgatory at best until Jesus' time. There was no hope for them the way we understand hope for salvation the way we do today. Without that, removing their sin and error for the world on its own would've been understandable. That it was done to advance the chosen people and in turn all of us in the church makes it a definite "good". You have to keep in mind, even though by today's standards parts of it seem barbaric, the ENTIRE bible is all about Jesus.

[Nihil Obstat]

I'd highly recommend Dark Passages of the Bible: Engaging Scripture with Benedict XVI and St. Thomas Aquinas by Matthew J. Ramage. Probably the best treatment of this topic available. 

If you buy it, make sure to use the Phatmass amazon link! (that's still a thing, right?) 

Been on my Amazon wishlist for a while now. I heard great things about it.

[MarysLittleFlower]

I believe the flood happened... But it was a consequence of sin. The OT is a story of how the world functions before Jesus came and opened Heaven for us. Its different because the situation is different. Yet God still chooses a people for the Messiah to be born of them and prepares them. That is mercy on His part. He didn't "owe" us salvation. We hurt Him, and His response was coming to us and dying for us - being killed by us. The OT needs yo be looked at together with the NT and remembering the Cross, I think, in order to be more fully understood now that we have the New Covenant  

Also there is Mercy and there is Justice. These attributes are in God together in a perfect way.. He is offering us His Mercy..  If we reject it we would have only Justice left. Justice was like the time of Noah and the flood though God showed mercy to the just that He found on earth. So someday we would have a time of Justice like the Last Judgement .. This is why we need to accept God's Mercy now before then and before we die. Because this is the time for us to choose. Chastisements still happen on earth because of sin too and we can ask God for mercy to lessen them... Like the story of St Faustina and the Divine Mercy chaplet. hopefully I said everything correctly here!

[Guest]

A worldwide flood didn't happen.

[Maggyie]

A worldwide flood didn't happen.

yes but you have to understand in the bible they are not talking about flood waters covering Argentina or Australia which they didn't even know existed. They are talking about a flood that inundated the  "world" they knew about at the time. Mesopotamia. 

[MarysLittleFlower]

I don't think the Church asks us to interpret the events as symbolic. Some things are symbolic but I believe the events did happen, they just have a deeper spiritual meaning that the people didn't always fully understand at the time. Am I right? We don't have to believe the OT events are symboliv right? Because I've always seen them as real events. I have no trouble with that. God can do any miracle He wants.

This doesn't mean that nothing is described using forms that are not always the most direct like in Apocalypse. I take the Bible literally though where it appears literal, like events, and where imagery is used that is still true but to convey an idea - like the beast in Apocalypse isn't a beast physically but it describes his spiritual state. Also, it was condemned to think that only faith and morals are without error in Scripture - the whole text is without errors, and all of it is for our salvation. Sometimes chronology etc may be changed for a reason, to show something. Those parts can be detected. But I believe parts that are described as events could just be interpreted as events. 

Everything is true though and inspired and there is no error in history or other things, not just faith and morals. This last point was specified by official Church documents like the encyclical of Pope Leo. Symbolic parts like parables are still true. And inspired and without error. I believe we can interpret everything that sounds like an event as an event. Even if it seems really miraculous... Isn't the Eucharist more miraculous?

[tinytherese]

I have not read it - but I came across a book recently by Matthew Ramage called "Dark passages of the Bible: Engaging scripture with Benedict XVI & Thomas Aquinas". Another book I have heard of is called "Is God a Moral Monster - Making Sense of the Old Testament God" by Paul Copan. Maybe you might want to check them out.

I recently bought that book and started reading it. Man is it tough to read though. The author takes multiple pages to say what he couldn've said in a paragraph, maybe less and has uses these quotes but doesn't explain them. Also, he rambles on and on about older methods of interpretation from the patristic and medieval era, the historical critical method, and Emeritus Benedict's method. I keep thinking, "Get to the point already. I ordered this for the controversial scripture passages, not ivory tower theology. You're taking too long explaining Benedict's method."  

To be fair though, the audience appears to be scholarly, not popular. It brings me back to my BA theology program days and why I didn't like it. Yammering on above the heads of even theology students instead of making it concise and helping us explain and apply it to a pastoral audience.

[Nihil Obstat]

I recently bought that book and started reading it. Man is it tough to read though. The author takes multiple pages to say what he couldn've said in a paragraph, maybe less and has uses these quotes but doesn't explain them. Also, he rambles on and on about older methods of interpretation from the patristic and medieval era, the historical critical method, and Emeritus Benedict's method. I keep thinking, "Get to the point already. I ordered this for the controversial scripture passages, not ivory tower theology. You're taking too long explaining Benedict's method."  

To be fair though, the audience appears to be scholarly, not popular. It brings me back to my BA theology program days and why I didn't like it. Yammering on above the heads of even theology students instead of making it concise and helping us explain and apply it to a pastoral audience.

Not everything is meant to be pastoral. There cannot be pastoral applications unless someone was first willing to do the academic and theological research and scholarly work.