Dreams & Visions

[julianneoflongbeach]

If you have a dream (of Jesus or Heaven for instance) and it seems to you to be more than just a dream, would it 'qualify' as a vision? Can they be the same thing or share similar qualities? I guess a more simplified question is, can you consider a dream real? ... Do I make any sense?

[Luigi]

I don't think dreams have any meaning whatsoever. Whatever's been on your mind lately gets jumbled up in your dreams, but not in any kind of meaningful way. Random nerves firing in your sleep. 

[Nihil Obstat]

First apply St. Ignatius' discernment of spirits. I suppose it is possible that God speaks to you in a dream. But rule out other possibilities, including the distinct possibility that it was just simply a dream.

[MarysLittleFlower]

I had that question too... I mean I don't believe in dream interpretation and most dreams are just dreams. But could they (rarely) be miraculous visions... St Joseph had this with the Angel? Could it happen to others?

Edited July 14, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower

[BarbTherese]

It can happen and for most all our mystics it has happened in some form or other.   I think probably what a SD or priest would look for is what happens after - does the person grow in virtue and other questions.

[BarbTherese]

Visions and locutions are by-products of mysticism, not the essence.  St Teresa of Avila, one of our greatest mystics, advised her nuns to not seek such phenomena which is open to self deception (imaginary powers) and deception by the devil.  The surest and safest way to Unity, she said, is through love of neighbour (Charity)

Catholic Culture Dictionary - Mysticism:http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/dictionary/index.cfm?id=35033 "The supernatural state of soul in which God is known in a way that no human effort or exertion could ever succeed in producing. There is an immediate, personal experience of God that is truly extraordinary, not only in intensity and degree, but in kind. It is always the result of a special, totally unmerited grace of God. christian mysticism differs essentially from the non-Christian mysticism of the Oriental world. It always recognizes that the reality to which it penetrates simply transcends the soul and the cosmos; there is no confusion between I and thou, but always a profound humility before the infinite Majesty of God. And in Christian mysticism all union between the soul and God is a moral union of love, in doing his will even at great sacrifice to self; there is no hint of losing one's being in God or absorption of one's personality into the divine. "

EWTN - Apparitions https://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/apparitions.htm "The first responsibility of the faithful is to remain firmly established in the faith, in the sacraments and in communion with the Pope and bishops. Any Catholic who gives their primary attention to alleged private revelation at the expense of Sacred Scripture, the teaching of the Church (especially the Catechism), sacramental practice, prayer and fidelity to Church authority is off course. The running after spiritual phenomena, such as alleged revelations, is condemned by St. John of the Cross as spiritual avarice. This means that pious souls who would be repulsed by crude materialistic greed think nothing of being greedy to know revelations and prophecies. An exclusive, or even a predominant attention to these matters (especially apocalyptic ones), cannot help but produce an unbalanced spirituality. Should the Church condemn some favorite alleged revelation such a person may find themselves believing more in it than in the supernatural authority of the Church. The devil will have succeeded in what he had set out to do."

[Gabriela]

In modern taxonomies of direct divine communication (e.g., locutions, visions, etc.), "visions" are had while waking and are experienced as if perceived by the eyes. A dream therefore wouldn't count as a "vision" but simply as a dream in which God spoke.

But if your question is whether God speaks through dreams, yes, He does. It's in the Bible.

I second Nihil's recommendation to apply the rules of discernment, though, and to speak with an SD.

[MarysLittleFlower]

Visions and locutions are by-products of mysticism, not the essence.  St Teresa of Avila, one of our greatest mystics, advised her nuns to not seek such phenomena which is open to self deception (imaginary powers) and deception by the devil.  The surest and safest way to Unity, she said, is through love of neighbour (Charity)

Catholic Culture Dictionary - Mysticism:http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/dictionary/index.cfm?id=35033 "The supernatural state of soul in which God is known in a way that no human effort or exertion could ever succeed in producing. There is an immediate, personal experience of God that is truly extraordinary, not only in intensity and degree, but in kind. It is always the result of a special, totally unmerited grace of God. christian mysticism differs essentially from the non-Christian mysticism of the Oriental world. It always recognizes that the reality to which it penetrates simply transcends the soul and the cosmos; there is no confusion between I and thou, but always a profound humility before the infinite Majesty of God. And in Christian mysticism all union between the soul and God is a moral union of love, in doing his will even at great sacrifice to self; there is no hint of losing one's being in God or absorption of one's personality into the divine. "

EWTN - Apparitions https://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/apparitions.htm "The first responsibility of the faithful is to remain firmly established in the faith, in the sacraments and in communion with the Pope and bishops. Any Catholic who gives their primary attention to alleged private revelation at the expense of Sacred Scripture, the teaching of the Church (especially the Catechism), sacramental practice, prayer and fidelity to Church authority is off course. The running after spiritual phenomena, such as alleged revelations, is condemned by St. John of the Cross as spiritual avarice. This means that pious souls who would be repulsed by crude materialistic greed think nothing of being greedy to know revelations and prophecies. An exclusive, or even a predominant attention to these matters (especially apocalyptic ones), cannot help but produce an unbalanced spirituality. Should the Church condemn some favorite alleged revelation such a person may find themselves believing more in it than in the supernatural authority of the Church. The devil will have succeeded in what he had set out to do."

That is such a good point that the essence of mysticism is not any visions etc.. I started thinking about the topic...  I think its more union with God and mystical types of mental prayer that approach union. I think infused prayer starts with prayer of quiet and then simple union etc. It all helps the soul to love God more and visions or locations aren't needed unless God just wants to give them.

They are of course something beautiful from Him too but not to be too focused on. I think even with mystical prayer the person should just concentrate on loving God and doing His Will and the fruit is seen in their life... Because ultimately  the purpose is interior transformation and the experience is just God doing it with less human effort than before.

But it can be easy to get addicted to the consolation of it and its important to avoid any pride cause that could ruin the whole thing. In the end its not something we can deserve and its a gift. Our job is just to do God's Will

[Credo in Deum]

 

[BarbTherese]

That is such a good point that the essence of mysticism is not any visions etc.. I started thinking about the topic...  I think its more union with God and mystical types of mental prayer that approach union. I think infused prayer starts with prayer of quiet and then simple union etc. It all helps the soul to love God more and visions or locations aren't needed unless God just wants to give them.

They are of course something beautiful from Him too but not to be too focused on. I think even with mystical prayer the person should just concentrate on loving God and doing His Will and the fruit is seen in their life... Because ultimately  the purpose is interior transformation and the experience is just God doing it with less human effort than before.

But it can be easy to get addicted to the consolation of it and its important to avoid any pride cause that could ruin the whole thing. In the end its not something we can deserve and its a gift. Our job is just to do God's Will

Mysticism I think is a difficult subject for me.  I think and I am pretty sure St Teresa of Avila - and I think St John of The Cross - that 'things' do not happen precisely the same in all.  The underlying dynamic of which they both wrote would be present however.  I can readily understand that Union takes place through Faith in Jesus, while what the different prayer states really are in actual content, I have no idea i.e. Prayer of Quiet, Simple Union etc. etc.  These were a headache for me and rightly so - I gave up pondering them long ago.  I just pray without reflecting on what kind of prayer or whatever - without a need to tag things for myself.  I share with my SD whatever and follow his advice always.

 

[MarysLittleFlower]

Sure we don't need to tag ourselves! in fact way better to just let the SD guide us. I am rather bad at many types of theology and this one of the types that I found I could read with peace without it causing scruples... So I had an academic interest in it. However in my own life its less important to label things and its best to just be faithful  

[BarbTherese]

Alleluia Amen to that, MLF!

[superblue]

are there any books out on the market, written by clergy, that helps the faithful to figure out via discerning / prayer or just a list of what ever to figure out if such dreams / visions / apparitions etc are from God ?

Or is the only answer we are ever going to get is go find a spiritual director and or priest to talk to  and see a psychologist . ?

I ask this because if one is not mentally ill, one might think they are if having such things happen, at least at first i would think, then if one is up to date on history, the Church and any priest just doesn't accept such things from a lay person or anyone as the truth right off the bat and rightly so, but it can also end up in disbelief altogether by the church which has happened to some saints. An with that in mind, might not be too inclined to be eager to bring that up.

An example would be with those who report UFO sightings, ( and i am only comparing the revealing of information ) those who report such things, especially those who come from credited fields are very hesitant to mention anything, and in the military such reports are always frowned upon....

Healthy Skepticism is fine, but it would be nice to have like a little book ( and don't even think about saying the bible ) that says okay if x,y,and z happens then you might qualify as at least not being crazy.

[BarbTherese]

There might be books or articles that are helpful.

I do think that such things should always be subjected to a priest and/or sound spiritual director.  If they are genuine and it is God's Purpose, no one is going to defeat His Purpose.  We see this in the life of St Teresa of Avila where some of her directors told her that her experiences were from the devil.  God's Purpose was eventually revealed, however doubtless St Teresa had much suffering and fears even rejection to endure in the interim before her experiences were validated.  Certainly, she was so afraid of deception by the devil, her own fears drove her to continually consult directors.

I can conceive that one might have genuine experiences, subject them to a sound SD, who rejects their validity.  However in truth the experiences are genuine and perhaps this fact will never ever be revealed before Heaven.  God has His Purposes and they are all good.  Do with me, Lord, as You Will.

[MarysLittleFlower]

There are books on Ignatian discernment I think that could be helpful... St Padre Pio also said with God, you always feel joy/peace after. With the enemy you might feel good during but not after. However I agree with Barbara Therese, its best to just talk to an SD. Not just cause they're moretrained but its more humble to submit to direction. Of course you should then choose a good wise SD. St Francis De Sales talks about that in Introduction to Devout Life I think.... My priest I've found is very good and he's FSSP, and I've found these priests are very knowledgeable / prayerful.