Interesting and frightening article on transgender children

[franciscanheart]

I notice that you refer to this girl as her. Is that a conscious choice?

Yes and no? She's still pretty young -- hasn't reached puberty yet -- and it's not something that's been addressed in a clinical setting yet. She hasn't asked to be addressed using male pronouns so for now it's a non-issue. Again, Em is wonderful just as she is. And if she grows up experiencing transgenderism, that's a hurdle that can be overcome when it appears.

Frankly, it's not mine to decide. If a person asks me to call him Hurley even though his name is Wendell, I'm going to call him Hurley.

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the role of the internet in promoting extremist views. Yes, the internet will not make you gay. That's ridiculous. But the internet can, and does, influence people and very quickly. It gives people ideas at a young age that they wouldn't come up with on their own, including ideas about sexuality, gender, and so on. That's just common sense. How much does it influence someone? I don't know, it depends. Maybe as much as 50%, maybe as little as 10%. 

Used to be you didn't encounter that kind of stuff until you went off to college, remember the stereotype of people going off to college and coming home atheist or whatever? nowadays the internet is basically a giant liberal porn-filled college. Free tuition to everyone with a phone. 

I didn't dismiss the idea that the internet is influential. I didn't say that at all. What I said was this: the internet isn't going to make you gay.

Don't forget, too, that the Internet isn't some mythical creature behind a screen. The internet is other people. Are you at a greater risk of encountering some crazy? Mhmmm. But it's also easier to connect with like-minded individuals. It's easier to share faith. It's easier to connect when physically isolated. So let's not make the Internet out to be the big bad Boogie Man in the closet.

I had access to the Internet at a very young age. I basically grew up with it. My parents, bless their hearts, didn't do as good a job of monitoring my online access as probably they could have -- but then, they were just getting used to the Internet too. That to say that I had access to a lot of things early on that my parents never would have introduced me to. I didn't visit a lot of awful places, but you know where I did spend a lot of time? Phatmass.

@dUSt likes to talk about this being a family-friendly place. He likes to remind us to keep it to a level that you wouldn't mind your new teenager reading. That's terrific. Because I was really young when I was introduced to phatmass. And I learned about a lot of mature, adult things on Phatmass, not from my parents. I made mistakes via my wild imagination, relentless curiosity, and information I found on phatmass.

I didn't realize I was gay until I was 21. TWENTY-ONE. Did the Internet make me gay? Did my failed relationship with a phatmasser and resulting bullying by other phatmassers make me gay? Was it the lesbians I met in real life that I got to know on a really human level that made me gay? All of the above? None of the above?

It's so easy to point to things that can be abused -- oh wait, that's everything.

It's too easy with scary, hard-to-understand issues like these to point outside and say, "THAT MONSTER IS CAUSING SO MANY PROBLEMS," when maybe (MAYBE) it's not the fault of any one thing -- or anything at all.

I understand wanting a reason. I understand wanting to blame something, even if we can acknowledge that the result isn't intrinsically bad. But it's not really fair, in my opinion, to decide that it's a time and culture thing. Time and culture have been blamed for all of time in every culture. Let's dig a little deeper, eh?

[Credo in Deum]

All that said, I still would not allow my son to dress in his mom's clothes. 

I agree.  I think children also need boundaries. Letting children do whatever they like is not conducive to their growth as responsible adults.    

[CrossCuT]

All that said, I still would not allow my son to dress in his mom's clothes. 

Of course not! Youd have to get him smaller sizes.

[Credo in Deum]

Yes and no? She's still pretty young -- hasn't reached puberty yet -- and it's not something that's been addressed in a clinical setting yet. She hasn't asked to be addressed using male pronouns so for now it's a non-issue. Again, Em is wonderful just as she is. And if she grows up experiencing transgenderism, that's a hurdle that can be overcome when it appears.

Frankly, it's not mine to decide. If a person asks me to call him Hurley even though his name is Wendell, I'm going to call him Hurley.

I didn't dismiss the idea that the internet is influential. I didn't say that at all. What I said was this: the internet isn't going to make you gay.

Don't forget, too, that the Internet isn't some mythical creature behind a screen. The internet is other people. Are you at a greater risk of encountering some crazy? Mhmmm. But it's also easier to connect with like-minded individuals. It's easier to share faith. It's easier to connect when physically isolated. So let's not make the Internet out to be the big bad Boogie Man in the closet.

I had access to the Internet at a very young age. I basically grew up with it. My parents, bless their hearts, didn't do as good a job of monitoring my online access as probably they could have -- but then, they were just getting used to the Internet too. That to say that I had access to a lot of things early on that my parents never would have introduced me to. I didn't visit a lot of awful places, but you know where I did spend a lot of time? Phatmass.

@dUSt likes to talk about this being a family-friendly place. He likes to remind us to keep it to a level that you wouldn't mind your new teenager reading. That's terrific. Because I was really young when I was introduced to phatmass. And I learned about a lot of mature, adult things on Phatmass, not from my parents. I made mistakes via my wild imagination, relentless curiosity, and information I found on phatmass.

I didn't realize I was gay until I was 21. TWENTY-ONE. Did the Internet make me gay? Did my failed relationship with a phatmasser and resulting bullying by other phatmassers make me gay? Was it the lesbians I met in real life that I got to know on a really human level that made me gay? All of the above? None of the above?

It's so easy to point to things that can be abused -- oh wait, that's everything.

It's too easy with scary, hard-to-understand issues like these to point outside and say, "THAT MONSTER IS CAUSING SO MANY PROBLEMS," when maybe (MAYBE) it's not the fault of any one thing -- or anything at all.

I understand wanting a reason. I understand wanting to blame something, even if we can acknowledge that the result isn't intrinsically bad. But it's not really fair, in my opinion, to decide that it's a time and culture thing. Time and culture have been blamed for all of time in every culture. Let's dig a little deeper, eh?

I never understood why the different name analogy is used when explaining how we should treat someone who is biologically one sex but feels they're another sex.  Wouldn't a better analogy be a person of one race feeling like they're a different race?  And would you refer to a caucasian person as being balck simply because they asked you to?

Also my question regarding the Internet was not meant to be me blaming the Internet as being the sole source/cause of people's identification. I believe there are tons of things which contribute, but I'm interested to know if high exposure to the Internet from an early age is something which plays a big part in ones journey. I think exposure to things can cause someone to question their sexuality and even get them to a point where they cross over to places they never thought they would go.  I believe some bounce back while others do not. I believe some could predisposed from birth while others are conditioned.  

  

Edited July 2, 2015 by Credo in Deum

[franciscanheart]

I never understood why the different name analogy is used when explaining how we should treat someone who is biologically one sex but feels they're another sex.  Wouldn't a better analogy be a person of one race feeling like they're a different race?  And would you refer to a caucasian person as being balck simply because they asked you to?

Also my question regarding the Internet was not meant to be me blaming the Internet as being the sole source/cause of people's identification. I believe there are tons of things which contribute, but I'm interested to know if high exposure to the Internet from an early age is something which plays a big part in ones journey. I think exposure to things can cause someone to question their sexuality and even get them to point where they cross over to places they never thought they would go.  I believe some bounce back while others do not. I believe some could predisposed from birth while others are conditioned.

I don't know if that's a better analogy or not since I don't usually address people by their race. "Hey, BLACK PERSON!" Not one of my go-to's, honestly.

Our beliefs about why someone is gay are different. Even in your opening lines you say, "tons of things which contribute." meaning, I presume, "more than biology." I believe that people who are gay are born that way. I really, really do. Because my experiences tell me that that is the overwhelming report from actual gay people.

As for the whole "does the Internet tempt people to do things they otherwise might not" thing, I understand the point you're trying to make, I just don't see why addressing the "Billy told me to jump out of the tree so I did" thing is necessary -- especially considering that so many are looking for a scapegoat. When I have a little more time, I'll tell the story of a girl I knew in elementary (and who stayed a member of our youth group through high school) and why I think that her case proves my point and disproves yours. One anecdote doesn't make me correct and you incorrect, but in my experience, this is the report over and over and over again.

More later...

[Credo in Deum]

I don't know if that's a better analogy or not since I don't usually address people by their race. "Hey, BLACK PERSON!" Not one of my go-to's, honestly.

Our beliefs about why someone is gay are different. Even in your opening lines you say, "tons of things which contribute." meaning, I presume, "more than biology." I believe that people who are gay are born that way. I really, really do. Because my experiences tell me that that is the overwhelming report from actual gay people.

As for the whole "does the Internet tempt people to do things they otherwise might not" thing, I understand the point you're trying to make, I just don't see why addressing the "Billy told me to jump out of the tree so I did" thing is necessary -- especially considering that so many are looking for a scapegoat. When I have a little more time, I'll tell the story of a girl I knew in elementary (and who stayed a member of our youth group through high school) and why I think that her case proves my point and disproves yours. One anecdote doesn't make me correct and you incorrect, but in my experience, this is the report over and over and over again.

More later...

What you usually do shouldn't be a factor since I do not usually refer to hes as shes, or his as hers, when addressing people, however, this is something we are being asked to do when speaking with a transgender person who is biologically male but has identified as a female.  Also the question isn't about what you usually do when addressing people, but rather what would you do if someone asked you to address them as whatever it is they identified as.  With that said I will ask again, would referr to someone who is biologically white, but believes they're black, as a strong black person if they asked you to do so?

Also a case where a caucasian has been found to identify as someone of another race can be seen here;

 http://nypost.com/2015/06/12/naacp-leader-has-pretended-to-be-black-for-years-family/

I personally find it hypocritical for society to hail Bruce Jenner as courageous and brave while at the same time shaming this lady for changing her race.

Also while you're going to give me your anecdotes to support your case, how do you feel about those who go to therapy camps and say they have changed their orientation from gay to straight?  Do you believe them or do you assume they were never gay in the first place?  

Edited July 2, 2015 by Credo in Deum

[MarysLittleFlower]

I agree! Its so interesting watching tv shows portray the stereotype that if their son likes a barbie doll, all of a sudden the parents are stricken with fear that their son is gay.

I am very much Pro Gender Nonconforming parenting. It seems like the least stressful for the child because the parents arent making them feel pressured to choose certain toys, clothing, styles, attitudes that coincide with how society views their gender. That also goes with how we treat young girls and boys. Frequently girls are nurtured so much more because they are perceived as fragile where as if a boy is upset, he is told to buck up because he can handle it. There was this great youtube video I saw a while back that covered the story of a 5 year old boy who loved wearing girls clothes. His parents allowed him to because it is what he liked! The boy would explain to his classmates that this is his style and they were ok with it.

 Doesn't this send the message that men and women are the same rather than equal in dignity but with differences? I mean I don't think its an accident that many boys are drawn to cars etc... And girls not too much... There are exceptions but I mean I don't think its fully made up either. I just don't think someone is "transgender" if they like something else.

[CrossCuT]

 Doesn't this send the message that men and women are the same rather than equal in dignity but with differences? I mean I don't think its an accident that many boys are drawn to cars etc... And girls not too much... There are exceptions but I mean I don't think its fully made up either. I just don't think someone is "transgender" if they like something else.

 

Does your choice in clothes really say all that? Dang. Gonna think twice about wearing my loose fitting pantaloons tomorrow in case people think I have less dignity then a feminine dressing female.

Do I have to wear a skirt all the time?

[Credo in Deum]

There was a time when women who dressed and behaved like boys, under traditional gender roles, were simply known as tomboys.  Depending on social standing some girls where sent to reform school by their parents. Yet they were never looked at as not being women.  Their behavior was looked at as being rude and unbecoming of a lady.  Nowadays however they would be considered as transvestites or women showing signs of being transgender by the PC police. 

[NadaTeTurbe]

If this interest me, it's because when I was little, I was... not tomboy, but I did not like to be a girl. I wanted the fun game, not the dolls, and the jeans, not the dress, and the short hair, not the long hair. I did not feel comfortable with girls, so today, my true friends are all male. My mom was so angry at me for this. She's an amazing lady, but very close-minded on this. She screamed at me. And still, she sometimes asked me if I am a lesbian because my behavior is not Jane Austen like. I wonder what would have happened to me if people had told me "you can be a boy if you want, and have a brand new sex." I wanted so badly to be a boy and to be free (and tbh, still want sometimes), I would have been so happy. But now... I have learn (with a lot of tears, yes), that I can be a girl, and wear whatever I want, speak freely, and having male friends. 
I also wonder how this can be used by parents who have Munchausen by proxy. 

[Archaeology cat]

 Doesn't this send the message that men and women are the same rather than equal in dignity but with differences? I mean I don't think its an accident that many boys are drawn to cars etc... And girls not too much... There are exceptions but I mean I don't think its fully made up either. I just don't think someone is "transgender" if they like something else.

 

Saying boys and girls can (and often do) like the same toys isn't saying they're the same, just that the differences don't pertain to that necessarily. Honestly, we socialize boys and girls to like different toys from the very beginning, often unconsciously. I have both, and I tend to play with them the same way. They each have different personalities and like different things, and it doesn't just follow along stereotypical gender lines. I don't think being male or female dictates one's interests. The complementary nature of the sexes is deeper than that.

 

[Ash Wednesday]

My brothers and I (female) shared all our toys. My childhood was Strawberry Shortcake fighting the forces of evil with GI Joe and Crystal Barbie flying on Transformers. Toys were toys. My parents were too busy and strapped for cash to worry about the details. 

[veritasluxmea]

I didn't dismiss the idea that the internet is influential. I didn't say that at all. What I said was this: the internet isn't going to make you gay.

Don't forget, too, that the Internet isn't some mythical creature behind a screen. The internet is other people. Are you at a greater risk of encountering some crazy? Mhmmm. But it's also easier to connect with like-minded individuals. It's easier to share faith. It's easier to connect when physically isolated. So let's not make the Internet out to be the big bad Boogie Man in the closet.

I had access to the Internet at a very young age. I basically grew up with it. My parents, bless their hearts, didn't do as good a job of monitoring my online access as probably they could have -- but then, they were just getting used to the Internet too. That to say that I had access to a lot of things early on that my parents never would have introduced me to. I didn't visit a lot of awful places, but you know where I did spend a lot of time? Phatmass.

@dUSt likes to talk about this being a family-friendly place. He likes to remind us to keep it to a level that you wouldn't mind your new teenager reading. That's terrific. Because I was really young when I was introduced to phatmass. And I learned about a lot of mature, adult things on Phatmass, not from my parents. I made mistakes via my wild imagination, relentless curiosity, and information I found on phatmass.

Oh, I see what you mean. It confused me for a bit because no one here is saying the internet makes you gay. I'm simply interested in how, hypothetically speaking, encountering various people and ideas on the internet does/doesn't affect one's journey. Can it influence, or maybe a better word would be condition, you at all? Being gay is a spectrum- aside from deep-seated homosexual inclinations, is it even possible someone can be conditioned/influenced into having, say, a one or two on the Kinsey scale? I don't know. At the moment I'm inclined to agree with you maybe not. At this point it sounds like it's getting into a debate on what causes homosexuality or whatever and I'm not interested. I myself didn't spend much time on family friendly websites growing up and it very much affected me, but that's just my experience. Other people like you may have very positive experiences or not be influenced much if at all, and that's good. I would want to know that. Again, I think it's common sense that some people will pick up ideas that wouldn't have occurred to them normally- and that may influence them differently than the ideas and people they pick up in real life. I would guess it would be a much less influence than anything encountered in real life, but still. 

At the end of the day: even if internet culture influences people, so what? It's just part of life. I'm not blaming it for anything; I simply want to be aware of what influences me and my life, and how, so I can accept the good and reject the bad, so to speak. 

[MarysLittleFlower]

Does your choice in clothes really say all that? Dang. Gonna think twice about wearing my loose fitting pantaloons tomorrow in case people think I have less dignity then a feminine dressing female.

Do I have to wear a skirt all the time?

Personally I only wear skirts. It's something I was lead to do. I used to wear pantaloons and wasn't brought up that way. Not my job to convince people of this but this is what I was drawn to spiritually as well. It doesn't mean women who wear pantaloons have less dignity. To me it's more feminine/modest. But I don't want to have this debate here.

Edited July 2, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower

[MarysLittleFlower]

My brothers and I (female) shared all our toys. My childhood was Strawberry Shortcake fighting the forces of evil with GI Joe and Crystal Barbie flying on Transformers. Toys were toys. My parents were too busy and strapped for cash to worry about the details. 

That's not really what I meant if it's a response to me.. I don't know