Bridal spirituality

[MarysLittleFlower]

I got to admit I do often think about how Jesus is better than any husband and I realize how that can sound discouraging to a married person... but I've known married women who said stuff like this themselves (not as a criticism of their husband) but referring to the relationship of God and the soul general. In fact in St Teresa's Interior Castle, the last stage is Spiritual Marriage and its for all souls of any vocation. There are married people who've had it. Its a level of prayer and its distinct from this other use of the imagery. So it can be used in this narrow way but also a general way but the reason I think of Jesus being a better husband is because I need encouragement and strength to deal with pressures to marry from others.  

To be honest I would probably struggle discerning a community if they didn't like the use of such imagery (its OK if they don't emphasise it, just as long as its allowed for individual Sisters) - because to me its so central in my discerning away from marriage. I would almost not understand who I am because I feel I could be a disciple of Jesus anywhere including marriage. I know not all may agree and not all Sisters feel drawn to the imagery but just for me its been important..

Regarding polygamy, - the way I solve this is that - the Church is one and a Bride and we are all in the Church, and also this is spiritual marriage of course. I'm not sure why these explanations help me with this but somehow they do? Does any of this help? God bless you  

Edited August 10, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower

[katherineH]

I got to admit I do often think about how Jesus is better than any husband and I realize how that can sound discouraging to a married person... but I've known married women who said stuff like this themselves (not as a criticism of their husband) but referring to the relationship of God and the soul general. In fact in St Teresa's Interior Castle, the last stage is Spiritual Marriage and its for all souls of any vocation. There are married people who've had it. Its a level of prayer and its distinct from this other use of the imagery. So it can be used in this narrow way but also a general way but the reason I think of Jesus being a better husband is because I need encouragement and strength to deal with pressures to marry from others.  

To be honest I would probably struggle discerning a community if they didn't like the use of such imagery (its OK if they don't emphasise it, just as long as its allowed for individual Sisters) - because to me its so central in my discerning away from marriage. I would almost not understand who I am because I feel I could be a disciple of Jesus anywhere including marriage. I know not all may agree and not all Sisters feel drawn to the imagery but just for me its been important..

Regarding polygamy, - the way I solve this is that - the Church is one and a Bride and we are all in the Church, and also this is spiritual marriage of course. I'm not sure why these explanations help me with this but somehow they do? Does any of this help? God bless you  

Thanks for sharing all of your thoughts! I agree that it would be hard to not have the spousal focus as a religious.  I think I would need something stronger to hold onto than the identity and focus of the community - not that they aren't important, but ultimately they are a concept, an idea, a goal, whereas Jesus is a person - so much more tangible.  

I like what you said to the polygamy part - religious are the brides of Christ in a more visible way, but really all Christians are the "brides of Christ" by virtue of being members of His Church.  Religious life is a deepening of that reality.  It makes sense! 

[MarysLittleFlower]

Im glad it made sense! There are different ways of being a spouse of Christ. They are not all in the same way and some are more direct. Its the Church who is the Bride. Its a degree of mystical prayer and the goal of every soul in Heaven. In a more visible way its also a vocation, where people can more in a way mirror the Heavenly reality here on earth.

Marriage is a sign of Christ and the Church, and consecrated celibacy is a more immediate living out of that where God takes the place of Spouse. CVs have this official title in the Church and are consecrated as such, so they symbolise the Church in a way. Other consecrated souls share the imagery though (there have been many discussions as to how) since they have given their celibacy to the Church for Christ and have no human spouse for His sake.

But Jesus has appeared to various Saints including nuns and those in third orders or lay people, and gave them a ring as a sign of mystical espousal with Him. I don't understand all of it... But I believe if someone relates to Jesus in a spousal way, that is a joy to Him and He responds back He does long for our love! And if someone isn't drawn to this, He will be who they need Him to be.

Im glad it made sense! There are different ways of being a spouse of Christ. Its the Church who is the Bride. Its a degree of mystical prayer and the goal of every soul in Heaven. In a more visible way its also a vocation, where people can more in a way mirror the Heavenly reality here on earth.

Marriage is a sign of Christ and the Church, and consecrated celibacy is a more immediate living out of that where God takes the place of Spouse. CVs have this official title in the Church and are consecrated as such, so they symbolise the Church in a way. Other consecrated souls share the imagery though (there have been many discussions as to how) since they have given their celibacy to the Church for Christ and have no human spouse for His sake.

But Jesus has appeared to various Saints including nuns and those in third orders or lay people, and gave them a ring as a sign of mystical espousal with Him. I don't understand all of it... But I believe if someone relates to Jesus in a spousal way, that is a joy to Him and He responds back He does long for our love! And if someone isn't drawn to this, He will be who they need Him to be.

Edited August 11, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower

[BarbTherese]

Thanks for sharing all of your thoughts! I agree that it would be hard to not have the spousal focus as a religious.  I think I would need something stronger to hold onto than the identity and focus of the community - not that they aren't important, but ultimately they are a concept, an idea, a goal, whereas Jesus is a person - so much more tangible.  

I like what you said to the polygamy part - religious are the brides of Christ in a more visible way,  .  Religious life is a deepening of that reality.  It makes sense! 

When I was considering and entered monastic life, the bridal type imagery and the focus on Jesus as husband did not appeal.  While what it meant, in that the state of perfection was a commitment to continue on the road to Unity - well that did appeal.  But as someone has said elsewhere, we are all different and unique and hopefully we can find happy unity and celebration in that diversity and our uniqueness.

I was very happy to see that you mentioned "but really all Christians are the "brides of Christ" by virtue of being members of His Church" - this is so rarely understood amongst laity and even priests and religious -  at least in my experience in Australia.

The Sacrament of Marriage are where two become one flesh and this is a sign and witness to the Unity to which we are all called as Members of The Church, The Bride of Christ.  The Church is Her members.

 

 

 

[Antigonos]

As I come from a tradition which does not assign any particular virtue to the unmarried or monastic estate, I just gotta say that any sort of incorporeal "husband" is an idealized one.  Those who haven't ever been married cannot really know what married life is like, and how different it is from what it seems to someone watching on the outside.  Often, here, one reads of comparing the "vocation" of marriage to the vocation of religious life but they cannot really be compared.  IMO, it's apples and oranges.

Let me see: in the past 24 hours I've had to put the toilet seat down three times, nag DH to take out the garbage, try [unsuccessfully] to get him to change a lightbulb, water the lemon tree, and bring up the laundry from the downstairs part of the house.  Just discovered he's erased a TV series I'd recorded and wanted badly to see.   And oh yeah, iron shirts for him in 90+ heat.  Not very spiritual.  I can see where Jesus might be a preferable "spouse"

Some years ago, there was a BBC documentary about a community which had relocated to a large Victorian house when their convent had become too much for them to care for.  At some point in the program, the interviewer asked the Mother Superior, a decidedly grave and thoughtful sort of lady, about this business of being "Brides of Christ".  "Oh," she said, "I never liked that imagery much.  Made me feel I was part of a harem".  And giggled like a schoolgirl.

[AccountDeleted]

As I come from a tradition which does not assign any particular virtue to the unmarried or monastic estate, I just gotta say that any sort of incorporeal "husband" is an idealized one.  Those who haven't ever been married cannot really know what married life is like, and how different it is from what it seems to someone watching on the outside.  Often, here, one reads of comparing the "vocation" of marriage to the vocation of religious life but they cannot really be compared.  IMO, it's apples and oranges.

Let me see: in the past 24 hours I've had to put the toilet seat down three times, nag DH to take out the garbage, try [unsuccessfully] to get him to change a lightbulb, water the lemon tree, and bring up the laundry from the downstairs part of the house.  Just discovered he's erased a TV series I'd recorded and wanted badly to see.   And oh yeah, iron shirts for him in 90+ heat.  Not very spiritual.  I can see where Jesus might be a preferable "spouse"

Some years ago, there was a BBC documentary about a community which had relocated to a large Victorian house when their convent had become too much for them to care for.  At some point in the program, the interviewer asked the Mother Superior, a decidedly grave and thoughtful sort of lady, about this business of being "Brides of Christ".  "Oh," she said, "I never liked that imagery much.  Made me feel I was part of a harem".  And giggled like a schoolgirl.

While on the one hand I do love the spousal imagery for romantic and idealistic reasons, I sometimes worry about young girls who have no experience of relationships, let alone marriage, trying to pretend that Jesus is their husband.It is a bit of a double edged sword. It reminds me of people who care for children (aunts, uncles, nannies etc) who think they know what it means to be a parent. As you say, apples and oranges. Marriage is about more than just romantic love. I think that nuns who have been in religious life for a long time get this.They have had to endure community life for such a long time that they know it is more than just soulful dreams about a romantic spouse! It can come as a real shock for a young woman who actually enters a convent to have to deal with the day to day realities of the life and the women who share it with her! 

But the young are supposed to be idealistic and romantic - so that's ok. If they weren't, no one would ever get married or become a parent and no one would ever become a nun! LOL

 

[MarysLittleFlower]

After reading the above 2 posts i kept thinking and thinking... Not debating with you all i just have lots of thoughts in my mind that I might just write down... Probably resulting in some huge disorganized post haha.  

I think a relationship with Jesus should be something that is practical and not romanticised. I wouldn't say not having ever been in a relationship immediately makes it so - because people idealize human relationships all the time, and knowing Jesus helps to understand a lot about love. I have never been in a relationship yet Jesus shows us that love needs to be self giving and sacrificial, and total. I may have learned this in ways if I were married. ...Jesus teaches this to married couples too simply by His example and grace. 

Yet I don't think I would have learned it totally from having a boyfriend, because those relationships are often 'fluffy' with little responsibility. If he was a really charitable person he may have shown me such an example and challenged me as a person. Im not saying you learn nothing... But still the level of commitment there is limited, rather the couple is just learning about commitment for marriage. 

Sure this kind of romantic frilly view can influence a relationship with Jesus but since He teaches you love and draws you into a relationship that has basically maximum commitment - learning how to love happens more quickly, IMO, than with dating someone. I'm not trying to downgrade human relationships but i don't think its possible for a soul to give herself as fully to a man as to Jesus. He does often teach through people, like in marriage, but in this type of relationship, He Himself replaces a spouse. He can still work through people of course like a community in a convent.

Married people can give themselves to Him too and so their relationship with their spouse becomes centred on Christ. This can teach a lot. However we are not capable of giving our hearts in this total way except to God because a part of it comes from the adoration we only give Him. (Married people included. God is always the first love). 

When you put together this adoration of living totally for God in everything (as all Christians can), and the exclusivity/intensity of this spousal relationship, you feel very quickly that Jesus becomes everything. I think it would be very hard at that moment for it to be all about romantic ideas that aren't that serious in nature. I don't know that's just my understanding lol... 

A relationship of this sort with Jesus also doesn't go right to Spouse. Since the identification with Him and intimacy is built (in spiritual terms, there are stages too)- its first getting to know Him, then like an espousal and then marriage. I don't mean the grades of mystical prayer necessaily that are called this way too... but in this other vocational way.

So I'm not sure at which point you can think that Jesus is your Spouse. With religious its more clear. Like I have made a vow/commitment privately but does that mean He is my Spouse, or only if I take religious vows? Or if I take more formal private vows? Anyway so I don't generally call Jesus my Spouse yet (its something I say very rarely), as much as I want to, because I don't like to pretend. If a private vow made in ones heart makes it so, then it would be good to know but I see all this as something He initiates and I just don't know for a hundred percent if I can say this.

Anyway I think this is such a total and consuming relationship that it teaches much about love. And living in community teaches it too practically... But imo even if living in community is hard, it doesn't take away the beauty of the actual relationship with Our Lord. A young nun may be shocked to find out that this is what being a nun is like - but the spousal relationship is with Jesus and not her Sisters, and the core of it is still about Him? I have never been a nun but I'm trying to apply experiences I have had. Jesus remains the same...

The sacrifice of the life only makes the relationhip with Him more loving and spousal, because more love is given, more completely. Suffering for the Beloved makes it all more sweet in a way because it deepens love. True love is the Cross and I think its very much related to the spousal spirituality. I don't see it as something light...  There is an intimacy with Jesus (in any relationship, as we grow in holiness) that is very consoling, but if someone wants to be His bride, - then she must die with Him on the Cross. Its extremely serious. And this can happen not in extraordinary ways but everyday ways.

Another aspect that to me is related to a spousal view of Jesus, is God's indwelling.  Married people can of course also have this, in spiritual growth, though in consecrated life theres an exclusivity to love, and the soul can give Jesus the parts of her heart that were for a spouse. A bride of Christ may have a desire to live for Him totally, for Him to live and not her (as St Paul wrote), and desire for union with God. Its like a flame that she wants to consume her in every instant, and for God to live in and through her Himself. I just think this is love.. But only love that is possible with God. Its a very total love, not just an infatuation, so its serious.

We all probably start with infatuation and possibly a girl might join a convent at that stage and then progress further. Living some sort of vow first may teach about it in another context. I dont like getting into specifics of my own relationship with Jesus but over the years it has changed. Wow long post but I was trying to figure it all out

[AccountDeleted]

[Off topic] 

Hey Antigonos, your post led me to your profile which led me to your blog - loved the brain test. I'm green like you! LOL

 

We now return you to your regularly scheduled program.

[MarysLittleFlower]

I just reread my post and thought some parts may be read like I'm downgrading marriage. I'm not at all! Its a beautiful vocation that teaches to love and God works through the spouses to help them reach Heaven. I've just been trying to understand to understand a relationship with God in a consecrated way and how its affected by that  

[Antigonos]

[Off topic] 

Hey Antigonos, your post led me to your profile which led me to your blog - loved the brain test. I'm green like you! LOL

 

We now return you to your regularly scheduled program.

I really must take up writing again.  It's not for lack of subject matter:  at the moment, there are at least three issues that exercise me, but, as they say, real life tends to intrude itself all the time.  That, and being active on a number of various forums, ranging from literary to religious to a couple dealing with obstetrics, women's health, and midwifery.  (at this moment I'm babysitting my grandchildren and have been on the go since 6 a.m. nonstop.  I'm really getting too old for this.  I sometimes think that, if it weren't for the obvious theological problems, I'd love to join a cloistered contemplative order...it would be so restful.  )

[beatitude]

I really must take up writing again.  It's not for lack of subject matter:  at the moment, there are at least three issues that exercise me, but, as they say, real life tends to intrude itself all the time.  That, and being active on a number of various forums, ranging from literary to religious to a couple dealing with obstetrics, women's health, and midwifery.  (at this moment I'm babysitting my grandchildren and have been on the go since 6 a.m. nonstop.  I'm really getting too old for this.  I sometimes think that, if it weren't for the obvious theological problems, I'd love to join a cloistered contemplative order...it would be so restful.  )

I just had a trip to the US where I was staying with a couple of friends who are studying for the Masorti rabbinate. I had a book of personal stories from nuns and other consecrated women with me, and one of them read it and said thoughtfully, "I kind of wish there were Jewish nuns." (Cue worried looks from the rest of the room!  ) I'm not sure contemplative monastic life is quite as restful as it looks from the outside, though. I have seen nuns tossing hay and driving tractors about before now...

[Antigonos]

I just had a trip to the US where I was staying with a couple of friends who are studying for the Masorti rabbinate. I had a book of personal stories from nuns and other consecrated women with me, and one of them read it and said thoughtfully, "I kind of wish there were Jewish nuns." (Cue worried looks from the rest of the room!  ) I'm not sure contemplative monastic life is quite as restful as it looks from the outside, though. I have seen nuns tossing hay and driving tractors about before now...

yes, but they have time for spiritual matters too.  Some years ago I read an article that was about the problem Jewish women today have with being raised, in the religious world, to pray and study as a girls and before marriage achieving a certain level only to lose the knack of prayer, etc. with the constant responsibilities of home and family once they married.  You simply cannot have "one eye on Heaven" when dealing with soiled diapers and trying to keep small siblings from bashing each other.  I collected volumes of Talmud and commentary when my children were small and comforted myself that I would do some serious study when I retired.  I retired three years ago, and have yet to begin -- and I feel the lack.  My children may be grown, but there's the next generation...

This is a fairly new problem in Jewish life.  100 years ago Jewish women simply were not educated to want scholarly or spiritual lives.  That was the man's job; the woman's role lay in keeping a good Jewish home and doing her share to raise her children to be good Jews.  There is actually no prohibition against a woman becoming a rabbi; it just has been felt traditionally that her expertise is needed in another direction -- that the home and family will suffer if she is ministering to a congregation instead.

 

This is why I feel that it's easy to idealize married life, just as it's easy to idealize religious life, when one has no actual experience.  How many women who enter religious life persevere to final vows?  But, for Catholics, whereas a woman can leave a convent, divorce is not an option for a married woman (Jewish Law does permit divorce)

[beatitude]

yes, but they have time for spiritual matters too.  Some years ago I read an article that was about the problem Jewish women today have with being raised, in the religious world, to pray and study as a girls and before marriage achieving a certain level only to lose the knack of prayer, etc. with the constant responsibilities of home and family once they married.  You simply cannot have "one eye on Heaven" when dealing with soiled diapers and trying to keep small siblings from bashing each other.  I collected volumes of Talmud and commentary when my children were small and comforted myself that I would do some serious study when I retired.  I retired three years ago, and have yet to begin -- and I feel the lack.  My children may be grown, but there's the next generation...

This is a fairly new problem in Jewish life.  100 years ago Jewish women simply were not educated to want scholarly or spiritual lives.  That was the man's job; the woman's role lay in keeping a good Jewish home and doing her share to raise her children to be good Jews.  There is actually no prohibition against a woman becoming a rabbi; it just has been felt traditionally that her expertise is needed in another direction -- that the home and family will suffer if she is ministering to a congregation instead.

 

This is why I feel that it's easy to idealize married life, just as it's easy to idealize religious life, when one has no actual experience.  How many women who enter religious life persevere to final vows?  But, for Catholics, whereas a woman can leave a convent, divorce is not an option for a married woman (Jewish Law does permit divorce)

Yes, I see what you mean. When I first came to Jerusalem and saw charedi mothers praying on the bus I was impressed and thought they must pray such a lot, but then a friend who grew up in that community corrected me with, "No, it's the only place they get time!"

Do you babysit in the evenings as well? I know Pardes have got a pretty good community learning program, sometimes at lunch and sometimes in the evenings, where they let you drop in on individual classes if you can't commit to a whole course. I have a friend who is full-time in their yeshiva and she enjoys it. I don't know if their style would suit you, though.

Edited August 11, 2015 by beatitude

[Antigonos]

Yes, I see what you mean. When I first came to Jerusalem and saw charedi mothers praying on the bus I was impressed and thought they must pray such a lot, but then a friend who grew up in that community corrected me with, "No, it's the only place they get time!"

Do you babysit in the evenings as well? I know Pardes have got a pretty good community learning program, sometimes at lunch and sometimes in the evenings, where they let you drop in on individual classes if you can't commit to a whole course. I have a friend who is full-time in their yeshiva and she enjoys it. I don't know if their style would suit you, though.

Nishmat is more my style, if you know of it.  Pardes is very close to where I live.  Right now, I am not only the full-time minder of my year old grandson, but, with the summer holidays, often have his four year old sister with me as well so their mother can be at work.  Then, in the evenings, my "adult child" (DH is 63) wants pampering.  After that, I fall into bed -- unless I'm babysitting, as I am tonight. All in all, if I had any free time, a pool membership, for my arthritic knees, would probably benefit me more than a study group!

Hopefully, by November life ought to be a little less hectic, as Ilan begins with a play group.  But my daughter wants to get pregnant again...and she has difficult pregnancies. So it probably will be Grandma To The Rescue, yet again...shouldn't complain, really.