Catholic Eschatology

[Archbishop 10-K]

Anyone want to talk about this? Seems like we Catholics don't focus on the end times anywhere near as much as some other denominations. It's hard for me to find good web articles and apologetics with any detail.


What is the Whore of Babylon in Catholic theology? The Antichrist? Millenialism (or lack thereof)? My family is Seventh-day Adventist (they talk about the end times a LOT) so I want to get the Catholic side of things.

[Budge]

From what Ive have read, Catholics mostly deny except for in some Trad circles that we are in the end times today. Many are Preterists who believe the time of the kingdom is NOW, (Revelation was completed at the time of Nero). I am disheartened when I hear Catholics deny the power of Gods prophecy. I was told directly by my last Catholic Church priest as I was making decision to leave the Catholic Church, that the "The Catholic Church did want the world to be as one--and the Vatican believed the United Nations was the best way to acheive this" I said "What about Revelations 17?" I would not be in a scoffing church--Protestant or Catholic. I believe Christians are to be awake not asleep to the signs of Christs coming. I believe we are very close. Many scoffers laugh. That is fine with me.

[Hananiah]

The Catholic Church leaves us with a great deal of freedom with regards to interpreting the Apocalypse. However, it is Catholic dogma that there will be a one man Antichrist, a time of tribulation, and one rapture for [i]everybody[/i] at the end of time when Jesus comes in glory to judge the living and the dead. There will be no secret rapture for Christians. We ain't gonna get it so easy.

[Archbishop 10-K]

I mean, while many fundamentalists feared the end times at Y2K, the Church celebrated Jubilee 2000. There's obviously a different set of attitudes here.


Many Seventh-day Adventists believe that the "mark of the Beast" will be the Catholic Church forcing the world to worship on Sunday. Of course, the questions begs to be asked, how would the Church ever get such a great influence in the world?

The way I see it, the Church during the time of tribulation will go back to being how it was in the pre-Constantine era: persecuted as enemies of the state.

[CreepyCrawler]

don't most parishes offer mass on saturday, too? how would that work? hmmm....

wasn't hitler considered one of the antichrists? and nero?

how can we know what's coming when christ said we won't know the day or time but just to be prepared? i'd rather worry about my soul than worry about what may or may not happen since we won't know when it's coming anyway.

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='Archbishop 10-K' date='Jun 13 2004, 06:32 PM'] It's hard for me to find good web articles and apologetics with any detail.
[/quote]
allow me

[b]Second Coming and the Final Judgment[/b]
--[url="http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/judga2.htm"]The Second Coming and the Last Judgment[/url]
--[url="http://www.rosary-center.org/ll49n6.htm"]The Last Day and the General Judgment[/url]
--[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/2NDCOME.HTM"]The Second Coming of the Lord and the Last Judgment[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=1080"]We Await a New Heaven and New Earth[/url]
--[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/FLFIRE.TXT"]Flood and Fire[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholiceducation.org/links/jump.cgi?ID=2058"]Where Does the Soul Go After We Die?[/url]
--[url="http://www.oloswestriver.org/judgement.htm"]Judgment[/url]
--[url="http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/judgb1.htm"]Judgment and the Laws of the Universe[/url]
--[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08552a.htm"]Last Judgment[/url]
--[url="http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/judga1.htm"]Particular Judgment[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholicapologetics.info/judgmnt.htm"]The General Judgment and the Resurrection[/url]

[b]Resurrection of the Body[/b]
--[url="http://www.knight.org/advent/cathen/12792a.htm"]General Resurrection[/url]
--[url="http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/rboda1.htm"]The Resurrection of the Body[/url]
--[url="http://www.cin.org/mateo/mat93313.html"]Resurrection of Body[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=683"]Our Bodies Will Share in the Resurrection[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholiceducation.org/links/jump.cgi?ID=2228"]Resurrection Means a Glorious Existence[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholiceducation.org/links/jump.cgi?ID=3007"]Resurrection of the Dead[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholiceducation.org/links/jump.cgi?ID=3360"]The Resurrection[/url]

[b]The Rapture, Premillennialism, and Dispensationalism[/b]
--[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Rapture.asp"]The Rapture[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=5829"]Waiting to be Raptured[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=5788"]Five Myths about the Rapture[/url]
--[url="http://cuf.org/member/rapture.pdf"]Now You See 'Em, Now You Don't: "Dispensing" with the Rapture[/url]
--[url="http://www.mark-shea.com/apoc.html"]Apocalypse Now[/url]
--[url="http://cuf.org/nonmemb/millrap.pdf"]Apocalypse [i]Not[/i] Now[/url]
--[url="http://catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0087.html"]Are We Living in the Last Days?[/url]
--[url="http://www.angelfire.com/ms/seanie/disp.html"]Dispensationalism and Its Errors[/url]
--[url="http://www.icubed.com/~rpoe/dispense.htm"]Dispensationalism: Another Gospel[/url]
--[url="http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/olson200312290001.asp"]Not with a Biblical Bang: Looks Like Saddam's Not the End After All[/url]
--[url="http://www.crisismagazine.com/november2003/olson.htm"]Five Myths about the Rapture[/url]
--[url="http://onerock.com/issue_3_24.htm"]I Used to Believe in the Rapture, and All I Got Was This Stupid T-Shirt[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholicexchange.com/vm/index.asp?vm_id=6&art_id=1705"]Catholics and the Rapture[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholic.org/featured/headline.php?ID=200"]Prophets of Doom Profit from Gloom[/url]
--[url="http://www.carl-olson.com/articles/endbegin_newcov.html"]The End is Only the Beginning: The Book of Revelation[/url]
--[url="http://www.carl-olson.com/articles/bkrevelation_thisrock.html"]The Time Is Near: Five Common Misinterpretations of the Book of Revelation[/url]
--[url="http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/WQuercus/articles/visions.htm"]Visions of Apocalypse: A Comparative Chart[/url]
--[url="http://www.carl-olson.com/graphics/Millennial_Chart_03"]Millennial Views: A Comparative Chart[/url]
--[url="http://www.carl-olson.com/graphics/Cath_Disp_Comp_03.pdf"]Catholic Eschatology vs. Premillennial Dispensationalism: A Comparative Chart[/url]

[i]Tim LaHaye's [b]Left Behind[/b] Series[/i]
--[url="http://www.nativityukr.org/various_files/Rapture_article.html"]No Rapture for Rome: The Anti-Catholicism of the [i]Left Behind[/i] Books[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=4684"][i]Left Behind[/i]: Any Link with the Early Church?[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholiceducation.org/links/jump.cgi?ID=3828"]Questioning the [i]Left Behind[/i] Rapture[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/false_profit.asp"]False Profit: Money, Prejudice, and Bad Theology in Tim LaHaye's [i]Left Behind[/i] Series[/url]
--The [i]Left Behind[/i] Books: Harmless Fiction or Anti-Catholic Propaganda: Parts [url="http://www.catholicexchange.com/vm/index.asp?vm_id=2&art_id=19570"][b]One[/b][/url] and [url="http://www.catholicexchange.com/vm/index.asp?vm_id=2&art_id=19571"][b]Two[/b][/url]
--[url="http://envoymagazine.com/backissues/5.3/rapture.htm"]LaHaying the Rapture on Thick[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholicexchange.com/vm/index.asp?vm_id=1&art_id=7059"]Recycled Rapture[/url]
--[url="http://www.carl-olson.com/articles/ncr_interview.html"]Enraptured with the Rapture[/url]
--[url="http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft0211/opinion/olson.html"]No End in Sight[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholicexchange.com/vm/index.asp?vm_id=2&art_id=14366"][i]Time[/i] for the Apocalypse[/url]
--[url="http://www.carl-olson.com/book%20reviews/leftbehind_movie.html"]Worth Leaving Behind: A Review of [i]Left Behind--The Movie[/i][/url]
--[b]note:[/b] also see the "Rapture, Premillennialism, and Dispensationalism" section of the [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=8020"][b][i]Last Things[/i] entry[/b][/url]

[i]The Church is the "Whore of Babylon"[/i]
--[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Hunting_the_Whore_of_Babylon.asp"]Hunting the Whore of Babylon[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Whore_of_Babylon.asp"]The Whore of Babylon[/url]
--[url="http://members.aol.com/johnprh/whore2.html"]The Whore of Babylon and the Book of Revelations[/url]
--[url="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5743/rev17.html"]The Whore of Babylon?[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholicapologetics.net/apolo_153.htm"]Why Isn't Eastern Orthodoxy the Whore?[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholicapologetics.net/apolo_118.htm"]Who Is the Whore of Babylon?[/url]
--[url="http://www.kensmen.com/catholic/endtimes.html"]Apocalypse: The Whore of Babylon, the Beasts, and the Rapture[/url]
--[url="http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/whore.html"]The Whore Is Jerusalem[/url] *
--[url="http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/whore_of_babylon.htm"]Whore of Babylon[/url]
--[url="http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/a92.htm"]Rome or Jerusalem?: A Protestant Study on the Whore of Babylon in Revelation[/url] *
--[url="http://www.geocities.com/chosunhoon/catholic/whorebabylon.htm"]Who is the Whore of Babylon in Revelation?[/url]


i hope this helps.........pax christi,
phatcatholic

[MC Just]

How anti-catholics get "The Catholic church is the Whore of Babylon" I really dont know. Jerusalem fit's the description more than anything.

[Sammy Blaze]

Eschaton is dope.

(well some of yall will get it)

~S.

[MC Just]

as for me I'l l be praying for the false prophets whose interpretations mean nothing.

[Archbishop 10-K]

If I were to write an end-times book or story (that is why I originally started the thread), which is faithful to the teachings of the Church, what advice would you suggest?

[Quietfire]

[quote]What is the Whore of Babylon in Catholic theology? The Antichrist? Millenialism (or lack thereof)? My family is Seventh-day Adventist (they talk about the end times a LOT) so I want to get the Catholic side of things.[/quote]

First off, its a bit more involved than simply just "oh, this means this" and such.

To read Revelations, one must first put themselves in a first century christian state of mind. John is writing to the seven churches while receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit. The Whore of Babylon is in reference to Rome, who is persecuting christians, and John is telling them to hold their faith and not faulter.

The Antichrist is in reference to Ceaser Nero, who (a very sick puppy) seemed to thoroughly enjoy watching christians die. His name in Hebrew, when added, totals 666. That is numerology. And yes, Christ warned against things like that, but please bear in mind, John was writing this from the island of Patmos, and for fear of having his letters confiscated and such, he made references that he knew the people of the churches would understand. Remember also, he never wrote Revelations, (and this goes for all the other apostles and diciples) with the intent that someday it would be put into a collection of books, to be distributed by the Church. The Catholic Church did that herself. Had she not done that, then we probably would all be Catholic, relying on the Church to interpret the letters for us.

Oh wait, the Church does do that. Except that we all arent Catholic, and some think they know the Bible better than the same Church that authored it.

Its actually quite amazing to read Revelations in its true content. Afterwords, you realize you can quite literally apply it to all situations that require that we hold fast to our trust in God.

Hitler and WWII comes to mind.
I am sure we can find a whole lot more examples than that.

May I suggest "The people of the Way" by Anthony Gilles. If you can find it, it's an excellent read.

Actually, I will post that entire chapter on Revelations in the Apo board sometime this week. This subject seems to come up alot.

Peace.

[Budge]

[quote]How anti-catholics get "The Catholic church is the Whore of Babylon" I really dont know. Jerusalem fit's the description more than anything. [/quote]

When did 2/3rds of humanity die?

When did 1/3rd of the vegetation burn?

When did the moon turn blood red?

When did the seas die?

and so forth and so on.

Those are all prophecies in Revelation.

Jerusalem being the whore of Babylon makes no sense.

Who wears scarlet?

Who sitteth upon many waters?

Who has golden cups of abominations?--I dont recall golden cups being used in Jewish worship.


People in the end will either choose Christ or the false antiChrist interfaith gospel and be decevied along with millions. The fulfilment of Revelation 17.

[MC Just]

"And he took me away in spirit into the desert. And I saw a woman sitting upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. 17:4. And the woman was clothed round about with purple and scarlet, and gilt with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand, full of the abomination and filthiness of her fornication.17:5. And on her forehead a name was written: A mystery: Babylon the great, the mother of the fornications and the abominations of the earth. 17:6. And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And I wondered, when I had seen her, with great admiration." (Revelation:17:3)


Compare Revelation with the following, Her clothing "the woman was clothed round about with purple and scarlet, and gilt with gold and precious stones and pearls" and The holy vestments for Aaron and his sons.


"Take unto thee also Aaron thy brother with his sons, from among the children of Israel, that they may minister to me in the priest's office: Aaron, Nadab, and Abiu, Eleazar, and Ithamar. And thou shalt make a holy vesture for Aaron, thy brother, for glory and for beauty. And thou shalt speak to all the wise of heart, whom I have filled with the spirit of wisdom, that they may make Aaron's vestments, in which he being consecrated, may minister to me. And these shall be the vestments that they shall make: A rational and an ephod, a tunic and a strait linen garment, a mitre and a girdle. They shall make the holy vestments for thy brother Aaron and his sons, that they may do the office of priesthood unto me. And they shall take gold, and violet, and purple, and scarlet twice dyed, and fine linen. And they shall make the ephod of gold, and violet, and purple, and scarlet twice dyed, and fine twisted linen, embroidered with divers colours. It shall have the two edges joined in the top on both sides, that they may be closed together. The very workmanship also, and all the variety of the work, shall be of gold, and violet, and purple, and scarlet twice dyed, and fine twisted linen. And thou shalt take two onyx stones, and shalt grave on them the names of the children of Israel: Six names on one stone, and the other six on the other, according to the order of their birth. With the work of an engraver, and the graving of a jeweller, thou shalt engrave them with the names of the children of Israel, set in gold and compassed about: And thou shalt put them in both sides of the ephod, a memorial for the children of Israel. And Aaron shall bear their names before the Lord upon both shoulders, for a remembrance. And thou shalt make ouches of gold; And two chains of pure gold at the ends; of wreathen work shalt thou make them, and fasten the wreathen chains to the ouches. And thou shalt make the breastplate of judgment with cunning work; after the work of the ephod thou shalt make it; of gold, of blue, and of purple, and of scarlet, and of fine twined linen, shalt thou make it. Foursquare it shall be being doubled; a span shall be the length thereof, and a span shall be the breadth thereof. And thou shalt set in it settings of stones, even four rows of stones: the first row shall be a sardius, a topaz, and a carbuncle: this shall be the first row. And the second row shall be an emerald, a sapphire, and a diamond. And the third row a ligure, an agate, and an amethyst. And the fourth row a beryl, and an onyx, and a jasper: they shall be set in gold in their enclosings." (Exodus 28:1-20)

The Whore in other words wore the robes and diadem of the JEWISH HIGH PRIEST. What other clues can be ascertained about her? She committed fornications,"having a golden cup in her hand, full of the abomination and filthiness of her fornication...the mother of the fornications and the abominations of the earth." What did the prophet Hosea say about the nation of Israel?

[img]http://www.catholicapologetics.net/images/highprst.gif[/img]




Hosea:2:2-11. "Judge your mother, judge her: because she is not my wife, and I am not her husband. Let her put away her fornications from her face, and her adulteries from between her breasts. Lest I strip her naked, and set her as in the day that she was born: and I will make her as a wilderness, and will set her as a land that none can pass through and will kill her with drought. And I will not have mercy on her children. for they are the children of fornications. For their mother hath committed fornication, she that conceived them is covered with shame: for she said: I will go after my lovers, that give me my bread, and my water, my wool, and my flax, my oil, and my drink. Wherefore, behold, I will hedge up thy way with thorns, and I will stop it up with a wall, and she shall not find her paths. And she shall follow after her lovers, and shall not overtake them: and she shall seek them, and shall not find, and she shall say: I will go, and return to my first husband: because it was better with me then than now. And she did not know that I gave her corn, and wine, and oil, and multiplied her silver, and gold, which they have used in the service of Baal. Therefore will I return, and take away my corn in its season, and my wine in its season, and I will set at liberty my wool, and my flax, which covered her disgrace. And now I will lay open her folly in the eyes of her lovers: and no man shall deliver her out of my hand: And I will cause all her mirth to cease, her solemnities, her new moons, her sabbaths, and all her festival times. And I will destroy her vines, and her fig trees, of which she said: These are my rewards, which my lovers have given me: and I will make her as a forest and the beasts of the field shall devour her. And I will visit upon her the days of Baalim, to whom she burnt incense, and decked herself out with her earrings, and with her jewels, and went after her lovers, and forgot me, saith the Lord." (Hosea:2:2-11)



The Vatican does not sit on the "Seven Hills"

"The seven heads represent seven hills on which the woman sits." First of all, no Pope has ever lived or had his "seat" (cathedra or cathedral) on any of the seven hills of Rome. These hills are small hillocks (Capitoline, Palatine, Esquiline, Aventine and three lesser "bumps" in central Rome) where the religion and government of pagan Rome was situated. The Catholic Church's headquarters at the Lateran (the cathedral) and at the Vatican (where the Pope lives) does not coincide with them. At the time that John wrote Revelation the Christians of Rome lived mostly in Trastevere (trans Tiber), a district "across the Tiber" from the City and adjacent to the Vatican hill where St. Peter was crucified and buried. The Vatican is on top of that burial site and is today its own city-state distinct from Rome and Italy.

Edited June 15, 2004 by MC Just

[Guest JeffCR07]

Hey Budge, I dunno if you're interested, but if you want to learn about Catholics and Revelation, I suggest reading a book by Scott Hahn called [u]The Lamb's Supper[/u] . Catholics arnt exclusively Preterists, but some are Futurists and some are Idealists as well. The draws a TON from revelation, and it turns out that Catholic teaching on Revelation isn't lacking at all, in fact, its REALLY REALLY deep stuff. If you're interested, I recommend it!

[Aloysius]

the stuff in the book of Revelation [i]happened[/i], it [i]is happening[/i] and it will [i]happen again[/i] at the end. It is a book that talks in code about Rome and Jerusalem, a book that talks in prophecy about the history of the Church, and it is a book that talks in prophecy about the end of the Church. PAX