We Finally Have hope and change ! <3

[Yaatee]

But the Democrats need more voters!

And the big businesses backing the GOP need more cheap labor to exploit!

Hee hee.  Love it, Socrates.

[superblue]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/07/14/little-sisters-of-the-poor_n_7796404.html?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000592

 

Thanks Obama and the Democrat party for Obama Care <3

[dominicansoul]

Wow, Superblue, the vicious comments made by the liberals on that page are absolutely appalling...grumbling like a bunch of rabid animals...   

 

The Sisters will be blessed for fighting the good fight...

[Peace]

I already clarified enough.

Well. Perhaps others may not find you as clear as you believe yourself to be. That could be possible. Carry on.

[superblue]

Well. Perhaps others may not find you as clear as you believe yourself to be. That could be possible. Carry on.

the problem is if i keep on trying to clarify to your satisfaction , i will just be exercising futility .

The democrat party do believe themselves to be as clear if not more so than HD TV, especially with a plethra of issues from immigration reform ( which by the way all those truly sick people who only want to come here for the glorious obama care, try explaining to others why they can't be seen by their doctor or have to wait a longer than normal extended period of time at a hospital because those poor people really need it more than they do, or perhaps a new disease is brought in because we no longer check for anything, and TB is now caught by someone or worse ) .  Though i will carry on knowing that the Democrat party is the party that founded the KKK, deceives people here and abroad into thinking they honestly love and care for them more than Christ and the Church and knows better than both.  It is a crying sad shame that others in the party refuse to see the clarity of the situation and or live in denial of it.

Wow, Superblue, the vicious comments made by the liberals on that page are absolutely appalling...grumbling like a bunch of rabid animals...   

 

The Sisters will be blessed for fighting the good fight...

shame and woa to thee for pointing out the comments by the liberals ! the holy liberals and their party of justice and love will never forgive thee !

But you do know what it is, these silly Catholic nuns making a big to do over nothing, they just are not progressive like the rest of those who let the bill be passed with out reading what is in it because the evidence was overwhelming that our country was in desperate need of health care over haul , even amongst those third world countries who keep flooding in to get treatment.

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

Superblue - if someone desires to come to the USA to attempt to make a better life for himself or herself, and does not desire to come here to commit crime or cause people harm, should that person be allowed to come and live here?

I believe that all such persons should be allowed to come here to live, without restriction. I believe that the planet is ultimately God's creation, and that because I did not create this land I do not have any more right to live here than does anyone else.

 

half of them perhaps there lives are already well enough and there just greedy. do you wan't more greedy people? Also Jesus drew a border in the sand.

[superblue]

 

I believe that all such persons should be allowed to come here to live, without restriction. I believe that the planet is ultimately God's creation, and that because I did not create this land I do not have any more right to live here than does anyone else.

 

By this logic alone, If i like your property, i should be able to come on to your property, and use it as i see fit and you should be able to do the same to mine, and more over no one should have to pay property taxes. And if you give me any grief about using your property, i should be able to claim , that this was created by God and was meant for everyone to use, so you can't prevent me from using the land, and that any government has no right to tax me for living on any land nor should they be able to force me off of my property for any reason what so ever, because God gave it to everyone.

 

[Peace]

By this logic alone, If i like your property, i should be able to come on to your property, and use it as i see fit and you should be able to do the same to mine, and more over no one should have to pay property taxes. And if you give me any grief about using your property, i should be able to claim , that this was created by God and was meant for everyone to use, so you can't prevent me from using the land, and that any government has no right to tax me for living on any land nor should they be able to force me off of my property for any reason what so ever, because God gave it to everyone.

 

In a sense the answer to your question is yes. If you truly need what is on "my" land and I do not - then you are welcome to it. God created the land - not me. The Catholic Church recognizes a right to private property, but that right is subservient to the universal destination of goods. If I had 1000 acres of land and plenty of excess food growing on the land for myself and my family - a person who truly needs the food should be able to come onto the land and eat.

Take a look at the Catechism:

2401 The seventh commandment forbids unjustly taking or keeping the goods of one's neighbor and wronging him in any way with respect to his goods. It commands justice and charity in the care of earthly goods and the fruits of men's labor. For the sake of the common good, it requires respect for the universal destination of goods and respect for the right to private property. Christian life strives to order this world's goods to God and to fraternal charity.

I. THE UNIVERSAL DESTINATION AND THE PRIVATE OWNERSHIP OF GOODS

2402 In the beginning God entrusted the earth and its resources to the common stewardship of mankind to take care of them, master them by labor, and enjoy their fruits.¹⁸⁷ The goods of creation are destined for the whole human race. However, the earth is divided up among men to assure the security of their lives, endangered by poverty and threatened by violence. The appropriation of property is legitimate for guaranteeing the freedom and dignity of persons and for helping each of them to meet his basic needs and the needs of those in his charge. It should allow for a natural solidarity to develop between men.

2403 The right to private property, acquired or received in a just way, does not do away with the original gift of the earth to the whole of mankind. The universal destination of goods remains primordial, even if the promotion of the common good requires respect for the right to private property and its exercise.

2404 "In his use of things man should regard the external goods he legitimately owns not merely as exclusive to himself but common to others also, in the sense that they can benefit others as well as himself."¹⁸⁸ The ownership of any property makes its holder a steward of Providence, with the task of making it fruitful and communicating its benefits to others, first of all his family.

As you can see, private property is not viewed as something that is intrinsically good, but as good to the extent that it is used as a means for "guaranteeing the freedom and dignity of persons and for helping each of them to meet his basic needs and the needs of those in his charge", and for developing solidarity among men. People are to own property as stewards for the benefits of others (his family being first). The Catholic view of property is essentially communal - but recognizes that the privatization of property can be a means to further the purposes for which God made it.

 And the right to private property remains subservient to original gift of the earth to the whole of mankind, and to the universal destination of goods. When private property is no longer used to effect those purposes, then the owner of the property has no right to hold onto the property. That is why it is not considered theft if a person in true need takes the property of a person with excess:

2408 The seventh commandment forbids theft, that is, usurping another's property against the reasonable will of the owner. There is no theft if consent can be presumed or if refusal is contrary to reason and the universal destination of goods. This is the case in obvious and urgent necessity when the only way to provide for immediate, essential needs (food, shelter, clothing . . .) is to put at one's disposal and use the property of others.¹⁹¹ 

 

And that is also why if you do not give poor people your excess wealth - YOU are guilty of theft:

2446 St. John Chrysostom vigorously recalls this: "Not to enable the poor to share in our goods is to steal from them and deprive them of life. The goods we possess are not ours, but theirs."²³⁹ "The demands of justice must be satisfied first of all; that which is already due in justice is not to be offered as a gift of charity":²⁴⁰

When we attend to the needs of those in want, we give them what is theirs, not ours. More than performing works of mercy, we are paying a debt of justice.²⁴¹

In short - the Catholic view of property and the view of property of an economic/political conservative are different. From the conservative view of property, a billionaire can choose to do with his property as he pleases. If he desires to give money to the poor he can. If he desires to not give the poor one cent, buy a yacht, and put the rest of his money in the bank and continue to live a lavish life, he can make that choice as well. But from a Catholic view of property, if he does not give money to the poor out of his abundance - he has violated the 7th Commandment. That is because he does not have an absolute right to do with his property as he pleases. He is only allowed to hold property to the extent that it is used for the purposes for which God created it - that all men should benefit from it.

I am not quite sure how tax plays into all of that - but at least the US Bishops have advocated for certain taxes that redistribute wealth.

[superblue]

peace i don't need to look at the Catechism , it is a nice idea, the truth is, you have to be perfect in mind, body, and soul for that to happen, or create a utopia for all. Now don't get me wrong, i know globally, people would love it if they didn't have to pay a property tax.

But this idea that everyone can and will live by the teachings of the Church and Christ , is naive .  

The democrat way of logic and thinking is beyond wrong, and nothing more than empty love. I think we all know that Hilary Clinton, Obama, and to be " Fair and Equal " ( because that is what democrats love ) pick any republican.... would never want to share their physical property with anyone.  What they are more than eager to do, is to " redistribute the wealth of OTHERS " ( NOT THEIRS ) and declare that fair , equal, justice, peace, and love and give it to the people they want to give it to.

that is not what Christ or the Church calls us to do, we are not called to give our responsibilities , choices, free will, freedom, faith, to our government, and then let them decide what to do with it.  An by no means am I going to consider what the USCCB has to say when they are flat out using the same terminology that the democrat party uses.    Trying to twist the Catechist to fit an agenda is nothing new, politicians , the supreme court and,you guessed it the Democrat party twist the constitution and the bill of rights constantly to suit their needs.

It isn't a conversation of we need to help the poor, the sick, etc, and lets quote the catechist to back up what we want to see done.   It is a government now demanding we give as much control to them as possible so that they can decide what is morally acceptable in our lives.  IF these politicians  and our government really gave a beaver dam about anything , then what they should be doing is looking into getting rid of wasteful spending, selling government held land that is doing nothing but sitting around, and take that land and or money, and go to the Vatican and go hey Pope, we want to help where can we go with this.

We don't need to bring everyone here to help them, there is transportation available now, we can easily bring anything we have to where it is needed, an we can build anything anyone needs where they live.  What isn't happening is corporations and governments are refusing to come together for the better of humanity because of selfish reasons, and instead blame the other party while claiming they are the real party who loves and cares for people.

it is we the people who need to demand that our government start doing more charitable things and giving freely to other poorer nations, not standing around waving our party banners and playing games.   

What the government and the democrat party does not want to do, is fix a problem that they created because at this point in time it is benefiting them to not fix it.

[Peace]

Superblue:

I think that every Catholic needs to look at the Catechism. I think we can all benefit from what the Church teaches.

But this idea that everyone can and will live by the teachings of the Church and Christ , is naive.

Perhaps it is naive - but it is what we are called to do. Let's just try as best as we can. I think that God gives each person everything that he needs to become a saint.

The democrat way of logic and thinking is beyond wrong, and nothing more than empty love. I think we all know that Hilary Clinton, Obama, and to be " Fair and Equal " ( because that is what democrats love ) pick any republican.... would never want to share their physical property with anyone.  What they are more than eager to do, is to " redistribute the wealth of OTHERS " ( NOT THEIRS ) and declare that fair , equal, justice, peace, and love and give it to the people they want to give it to.

Yes. I think there is truth in that.

that is not what Christ or the Church calls us to do, we are not called to give our responsibilities , choices, free will, freedom, faith, to our government, and then let them decide what to do with it.

Agreed.

An by no means am I going to consider what the USCCB has to say when they are flat out using the same terminology that the democrat party uses.    Trying to twist the Catechist to fit an agenda is nothing new, politicians , the supreme court and,you guessed it the Democrat party twist the constitution and the bill of rights constantly to suit their needs.

I don't think many Democrats or liberals would agree that their agenda matches the USCCB. That is clearly not the case when it comes to things like abortion, contraception, and gay rights, all things that the USCCB has rightfully spoken out on. Sure - the USCCB is made up of men, and men have political inclinations. I will grant you that. And perhaps the political inclinations of the men who make up the USCCB influence their policy to a certain extent. But these are also Bishops of the Catholic church. For the sake of simplicity, they have the same task and powers that the apostles had. They are ordained men and have taken vows to be faithful to God and to be servants of those who also follow our blessed Lord. They are not just a bunch of politicians with a political agenda. Their agenda is to spread the Gospel and to lead people to Jesus. That means something, and I do not think they can simply be ignored when they disagree with one of your positions.

It isn't a conversation of we need to help the poor, the sick, etc, and lets quote the catechist to back up what we want to see done.   It is a government now demanding we give as much control to them as possible so that they can decide what is morally acceptable in our lives.  IF these politicians  and our government really gave a beaver dam about anything , then what they should be doing is looking into getting rid of wasteful spending, selling government held land that is doing nothing but sitting around, and take that land and or money, and go to the Vatican and go hey Pope, we want to help where can we go with this.

Perhaps. I used the Catechism because I am Catholic and it is relevant to the hypothetical that you presented to me. That is all.

We don't need to bring everyone here to help them, there is transportation available now, we can easily bring anything we have to where it is needed, an we can build anything anyone needs where they live.  What isn't happening is corporations and governments are refusing to come together for the better of humanity because of selfish reasons, and instead blame the other party while claiming they are the real party who loves and cares for people.

I agree - we do not need to bring everyone here. And we should try to reach out to people and help them where they live. What I advocated was allowing people to come here who desire to come here. I do not see why I should have any more right to live on this land than anyone else. God created the land for all men. He did not create the land for Peace, Superblue, or the people who were lucky enough to have been born here, exclusively.

it is we the people who need to demand that our government start doing more charitable things and giving freely to other poorer nations, not standing around waving our party banners and playing games.   

What the government and the democrat party does not want to do, is fix a problem that they created because at this point in time it is benefiting them to not fix it.

There is truth to that as well. But I do not think that problem is limited to Democrats. It is more of a problem with the general nature of the political system. The primary objective of any politician is to do what he needs to do to win votes and get elected. The things he needs to do to get elected are not always consistent with what is best with the people he serves.

Edited July 16, 2015 by Peace

[superblue]

What I advocated was allowing people to come here who desire to come here.

An they can come here, legally, through the system that was set up. When people are smuggled in bad things happen all around and more often than not people that are coming here illegally are  being smuggled in here , and it ends up becoming more often than not human trafficking not oh let me help my fellow countryman get a better life in the USA. If people are so upset about how slow and long and tedious it is to enter the USA, there are procedures already in place to fix that problem.  I don't think though that illegal immigrants should be deported , or harshly punished, ( minus those with criminal histories  that are beyond being over looked ). But the problem does not get fixed by encouraging illegal immigrants to come here with the hope and promise of being taken care of at the expense of others and others who have legally gone through the process. 

Everyone hears stories time and again on illegals trying to cross the boarder and just assumes  that every single one of them is fleeing a horrible life, and while part of that is true , they ignore another fact that criminals, are crossing as well, and that people with diseases that are spreadable are in the mix and can easily start an epidemic . An that is why i won't just cave into , this idea of well God made the earth so we should have open boarders.

Then even if the bad stuff wasn't a problem, and say we did have open boarders, exactly how are we to communicate ? If we can not have english as the national language then we are going into an another giant debate of pointlessness.  The Appeasing has to stop at some point. Marijuana has been legalized enough, Marriage is no longer between a man and a woman, our Right to bear arms has been poked at , and we have been forced to use a government medical program, all in part or due to a party that founded the KKK, and PPH. An yet that isn't really a big deal now.

The USCCB  is a completely different topic for me, i do agree that just because i don't like them doesn't mean that everyone else should ignore them.

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

Borders keep people safe, just like when Jesus drew a line in the sand to protect the women from getting stoned. People of other nations have different rules and understandings as to what is right and what is wrong, what is true and what is just.

Edited July 17, 2015 by Tab'le De'Bah-Rye

[superblue]

Tab'le the problem is those that want open boarders which is just slang, what society wants is America to have open boarders, and who cares what the rest of the world does.... but again the ones that want America to open to all, they time an again ignore and or side step reality and simply hang everything on flimsy ideals and sympathy.

They would rather let in 51 people if it meant 50 are criminals and will probably murder or do someone harm so that the one person gets the much needed help.  That is the ration of thinking that is being held.

[Peace]

They would rather let 51 people in if 50 are criminals? Come on now. Be reasonable. I think most people, even those such as myself who would allow most people to come here, believe in things like screening out criminals, terrorists, and so forth. I don't have anything against prudent precautions. What I do have something against is making it virtually impossible for entire classes of people to come here. And that is pretty much the case with people who live in many countries. It is pretty much impossible to get a US visa unless you come from Europe, or are a doctor, engineer, lawyer, etc. . .

If a good person desires to come here to live, I believe that he should be able to, regardless of what country he is from or how much money or education he has. That is all.

[superblue]

Okay i should have excluded Peace from that comment, but the solution is not just opening up the borders with zero precautions and that is what the democrat makes it sound like they really want , maybe not specifically all the democrat voters, but i think at least the party itself would like to see flat out open borders .

 

If both parties were seriously interested in fixing how hard it is to become a US citizen, they would do something about it, not sit there pointing fingers at each other as to who to blame.