Do we really care about Hell?

[Ice_nine]

I hope good intentions count for something. I've seen many times in my own life when I was really trying to do the right thing only to find out weeks, months, years later even that I was actually doing the wrong thing. I'm very aware of my own capacity for self-deception. It's a weakness. May God have mercy.

 

I like the Fatima prayer. It acknowledges the reality of hell and the power of God to save us from it, even the worst of us, all in a few sentences.

[Yaatee]

hmm.. I mean it is a serious thing to be not Christian because it's much harder that way. It is clear from Church teachings that salvation is only found through the Church. If someone is not in it and goes to Heaven, that is either because they were invincibly ignorant AND lead a moral life according to natural law/inspirations of grace, and I think it was St Augustine who said that if they are truly seeking the truth they might have it revealed to them as they're dying or before they die. In fact there are Muslims in Muslim countries closed to evangelism that have had dreams of Christ, not knowing who He is, and then finding out later who He is and becoming Christian. However, invincible ignorance itself doesn't save, and it's harder to be saved with invincible ignorance rather than being in the Church, - so it is very serious to not be Christian. Also how many are invincibly ignorant, we don't know, but it's easy to reject Christianity if someone is not Christian if they know about it and don't accept it. So.. I would be careful with this myself

As for where Jesus descended, it was basically like limbo. The just were waiting there from the Old Covenant times for the Messiah, and He brought them to Heaven. I forget if He also spoke to those who did not live a good life, perhaps, but anyway they were not taken to Heaven. Now it's different because now the Messiah did come. So people go to Heaven/Purgatory/hell and the Church considers limbo for unbaptized babies as an option.

Regarding the Syllabus.. it is a Papal document and very in accordance with Catholicism so I accept it.. It did not reject invincible ignorance. Number 16 means that other religions don't lead to salvation, which they don't, only Christ does through the Church. The same Pope who wrote the Syllabus supported invincible ignorance: https://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/outside_the_church.htm  The next point in the Syllabus talks about the idea that all non Christians are saved, which is again false. As for civil divorce and religious liberty, I agree with the Syllabus even if all the countries in the world supported these ideas, that doesn't matter to me, I'm a Catholic first. civil divorce is still divorce because non Catholics have valid marriages though not Sacramental. So what Jesus said about divorce applies to non Catholics too.

Even if it's not talked about today, doesn't mean it's not true.. it's very Catholic and based on solid Catholic doctrine, from a very good Pope. So personally I trust it

Regarding the last comment that most people are not in mortal sin and make it to Purgatory... actually it's extremely common to be in mortal sin I think I used to live in mortal sin and I was just a teen. A person doesn't have to murder people to be in mortal sin. Have they consented to impure thoughts? mortal sin right there. Most people who go to hell go there because of impurity, as was revealed to a Saint. Do I like it? no of course not. And I'm not less of a sinner than others. But the whole idea is that it's important to be realistic. Mortal sin is not just terrible shocking crimes like murder. It's all terrible but society approves many, many things that are in fact grave sins, and if a person feels uncomfortable with them in their conscience and still does them, that's a mortal sin. I confessed many mortal sins when I entered the Church as a university student. It's not rare.. but when I look at particular people, I can't say where they are due to not knowing their soul. Some things we all know though in our conscience.. if the conscience gets dulled because of sin, that actually increases culpability. So if someone doesn't feel that impurity is wrong, that doesn't mean they're not committing a mortal sin. Actually they would be. This is speaking generally. Culpability for particular people I leave to God.

Remember that the revelations to the saints, visions and apparitions are not dogma. You don't have to believe in any of them to be a good observant Catholic.

[Nihil Obstat]

Good intentions certainly count for something. But it is not sufficient for salvation.

[Yaatee]

Very much in the same vein, the favourite question, "who is a good person?" "Be perfect as your Father in Heaven is perfect."

Who is perfect?  What is perfect?  What is perfection?

[Yaatee]

I hope good intentions count for something. I've seen many times in my own life when I was really trying to do the right thing only to find out weeks, months, years later even that I was actually doing the wrong thing. I'm very aware of my own capacity for self-deception. It's a weakness. May God have mercy.

 

I like the Fatima prayer. It acknowledges the reality of hell and the power of God to save us from it, even the worst of us, all in a few sentences.

Well, I think that good intentions count for something.  Without it, for example, all those inquisitors who burned the Jews in Spain, for example, went straight to hell.

One can like prayers, revelations, apparitions, testimony.  But it's not required.

[MarysLittleFlower]

Just to clarify what I said about impure thoughts and mortal sin... Its if the thoughts are actually consented to and with lust. Same with other grave matter thoughts. Our Lord said if one looks at another lustfully its already adultery.

Honestly our society accepts tons of things that are mortal sins. Jesus said the way is narrow. 

Abortion, contraception, premarital sex...Gossip, revenge, hatred, etc... Divorce without annulment. Misusing Sunday and disrespecting God's Name... Rejecting God, His laws, and the Church. New Age practices. Superstition All grave matter. Someone might say mostpeople are ignorant. But it needs to be invincible ignorance. Not hardness of heart. Unbelief can come from hardness of heart. So can sin. Also many things are written in the human heart and others suggested as good thoughts by God and the Angels. Knowledge doesn't just deal with not being Catholic and explicit knowledge of church teaching. Before I was Christian I did many things i felt were wrong without being taught about some of them. I can't say where individuals are but our society is very fallen. Its very easy to be in and excuse mortal sin here. Our concupiscence draws us to all the sins and its hard to resist without much grace and practice. Some people might say I'm being negative etc but how can we care about helping souls escape hell if we  don't see the easy danger and that the path to destruction is wide..

[Yaatee]

I think that one has to be very careful about scrupulosity in all of this.  An excessive preoccupation with sin, and sins, and what is a sin, is this a sin, is that a sin, are they sinning?

I think that it is healthier, from a mental health standpoint, to concern oneself with one's own actions, and, for the rest, give them the benefit of a doubt.  After all, God will judge them.

Many Catholics just don't believe that certain things, many things in fact, are sins.  Contraception, number one.  Divorce for another. Living in sin, for another--people don't use that phrase; they talk about "relationships"--this is common in my state, where they are many Hispanic Catholics.  They honestly disagree.  Leave it to God.

Edited June 30, 2015 by Yaatee

[MarysLittleFlower]

Yaatee, I know we are not obligated to believe them but this does not mean that they are not true or that its equally a good idea to accept or reject them. St Louis De Montfort said its more simple to accept all that the Church accepts.. If we only do the requirements we'll just have one yearly Communion, never pray the Rosary, etc, we'll never become Saints I like the idea of using everything the Church gives us - obligation or no. 

[MarysLittleFlower]

 

Hmm.. Regarding a particular person we can leave judgement to God while still trying to help them. Doctrinally I don't think that just honestly disagreeing is enough. A person can honestly disagree with a hardened heart and a rejection of the truth. I think dealing with individuals is one thing and making statements on society and groups is another - we can say in terms of human experience how it is I think. I just don't think honestly disagreeing shows invincible ignorance. The heart is deceptive.  

[MarysLittleFlower]

If someone has been given grace to believe something and rejects it that is vincible even if they feel they are honest... Its not about honesty to self. That could just be being honest to your feelings etc but we are called to form conscience by Church teaching. Not just inform and then decide we disagree... That is not ignorance but rejection of doctrine. Individual consciences again are up to God. I'm talking about the ideas. 

[Yaatee]

Well, last word on hell.  I find it exceedingly unpleasant that there are people out there who believe that only a few people, including themselves, of course, are going to heaven.  (What about everyone in purgatory--where do they end up??)  That, on the basis of "revelations", they are content that souls who were willed into existence by God, are going to burn forever in hell.   Being in heaven with these people would be hell.  What sin would your child have to commit for you to burn it alive?

[Nihil Obstat]

Everyone in purgatory goes to heaven eventually. It might take millennia, but they get there.

[Credo in Deum]

Well, last word on hell.  I find it exceedingly unpleasant that there are people out there who believe that only a few people, including themselves, of course, are going to heaven.  (What about everyone in purgatory--where do they end up??)  That, on the basis of "revelations", they are content that souls who were willed into existence by God, are going to burn forever in hell.   Being in heaven with these people would be hell.  What sin would your child have to commit for you to burn it alive?

What could you do for a child who didn't want to be saved?

Edited July 2, 2015 by Credo in Deum

[MarysLittleFlower]

Well, last word on hell.  I find it exceedingly unpleasant that there are people out there who believe that only a few people, including themselves, of course, are going to heaven.  (What about everyone in purgatory--where do they end up??)  That, on the basis of "revelations", they are content that souls who were willed into existence by God, are going to burn forever in hell.   Being in heaven with these people would be hell.  What sin would your child have to commit for you to burn it alive?

Why do you assume that anyone of us assumes their own salvation? Catholics do not. We are not OSAS Protestants. We just hope and try. Also people in Purgatory eventually go to Heaven that is the purpose of Purgatory, and that is why a person with unrepentant mortal sin doesn't go to Purgatory but to hell. Also people here are not giving numbers just saying its hard to be saved and the road is narrow... Our Lord said this about the road. There are many unpleasant truths out there. If we look for things being pleasant we'll end up with some errors.. Because the world is fallen. Also who ever said they are content??? Personally I was saying its a tragic heartbreaking thing and it means we should pray for souls! How is this being consent? Lastly I think your understanding of hell is not the Catholic position. God doesn't happily send someone to hell. Hell is when He tries everything to save them INCLUDING giving His own life (which He is not obligated to because we are the ones who gravely hurt Him), and they STILL choose their sins over Him. When they enter eternity, they have this sin that makes it impossible for them to love. Their choice becomes eternal in eternity and they can't repent, because that HAS to be a choice, and they freely rejected it. They put themselves there. Do you think God should force them to be with Him? Do you realize that they would only run away with hatred and being in extreme pain at His holiness and even love? Hell is the only option. Christ has unspeakable grief for lost souls. They cost Him His life and then rejected Him. If you think about His suffering you would not talk as if He is glad they are there. There is Mercy and Justice. If a person rejects Mercy all they have is Justice to judge them. God is good in both because there is no evil in Him. He wants us to choose His Mercy but repentance and love need to be free to even exist. St Faustina who saw hell was the one given the Divine Mercy message about God's Mercy: if you think God is unjust sending souls to hell maybe this would help: https://www.ewtn.com/devotionals/mercy/ Our Lady who showed the children at Fatima countless souls falling into hell.weeps over them. Why do you speak as if there is gloating in Heaven? You speak as if there is either gloating or many are saved. But theres a third option. Acknowledging the reality of a sad situation doesn't mean you like it. Do you deny that wars happen to dislike them? It might seem more merciful to.think "hell is for the terrible criminals like Hitler and other people are fine" - but once we see God's holiness we would understand you can't unite Him with sin. And Heaven is union with God. Even tiny sins need purgatory to be cleansed so souls go to Heaven! Do you wish for God to be less good? To like some evil so He would still take thosepeople? That would be blasphemy. But if they came to Heaven would hate God and be in pain WORSE than hell. Sin is also not just criminal.actions. its interior sins too. In reality God has more mercy than how you described. He doesn't have less compassion for the criminals either. Think about the Cross. He died to save people. If they still reject Him how could it be His fault.