truthfinder Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 I haven't seen any women posting here (apologies if I'm mistaken), so I'll chime in. I certainly believe in Hell, and I like to think that my belief in it is not motivated by desires of revenge. It is also not my base motivation to not sin, but it does provide a great reflection for me to examine my life and discern where I am failing, not only in the "big" sins, but those which are perhaps just as insidious - gossip, sloth, pride, etc. And for me, who can rationalize just about any sin away, it provides an absolute to say, 'yes, I have sinned greatly, and if I were to be judge before God right now, I would go to Hell because I have offended Him greatly.' I don't know why you see women less vocal in their beliefs about Hell - I think it's also a topic that's pretty easy to fall into both heresy and quasi-superstition (there is definitely Tradition/tradition, but there is a significant amount of pious thought over the two millennia, probably about the same with what we can expect in Heaven). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Asik Posted June 26, 2015 Author Share Posted June 26, 2015 I can certainly say that about my parish community. Well, that certainly is impressive. Do you think this is representative of Catholics though? I get the feeling you must be part of a quite traditional and atypical parish. After all, it was Benedict XVI who said: "Hell really exists and is eternal, even if nobody talks about it much anymore." http://www.foxnews.com/story/2007/03/28/pope-hell-is-real-place-where-sinners-burn-in-everlasting-fire.html And a study by the Pew Forum in 2008 reveals that only 60% of Catholics even admits that Hell exists: http://www.pewforum.org/2008/06/01/u-s-religious-landscape-survey-religious-beliefs-and-practices/ Lastly it is widely recognized that Church teaching has shifted away from damnation since the last Council: http://www.uscatholic.org/church/2011/09/has-hell-frozen-over Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 Well, that certainly is impressive. Do you think this is representative of Catholics though? I get the feeling you must be part of a quite traditional and atypical parish. After all, it was Benedict XVI who said: "Hell really exists and is eternal, even if nobody talks about it much anymore." http://www.foxnews.com/story/2007/03/28/pope-hell-is-real-place-where-sinners-burn-in-everlasting-fire.html And a study by the Pew Forum in 2008 reveals that only 60% of Catholics even admits that Hell exists: http://www.pewforum.org/2008/06/01/u-s-religious-landscape-survey-religious-beliefs-and-practices/ Lastly it is widely recognized that Church teaching has shifted away from damnation since the last Council: http://www.uscatholic.org/church/2011/09/has-hell-frozen-over Well the thing is, I am not really sure what you are trying to say in this thread. Because when you say "look, no Catholics really believe in hell", the subtext sure sounds like "lel, look at these superstitious rubes who still believe in hell. Talk about behind the times." I certainly believe that the Church is suffering a major crisis of faith and that most Catholics at this moment are material heretics if not outright apostates. But then the flip side of that is that I frankly do not care what those people believe, because neither does it represent what the Church believes nor does it have any bearing on the truth of the Church's teaching. What the heretics believe does not matter except inasmuch as we can convince them to abandon their heresies. Beyond that, totally irrelevant, because much like a city's sewage pipes coming from many sources to one central facility, it all ends up in the same place. I care what faithful Catholics and holy priests and bishops believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Asik Posted June 26, 2015 Author Share Posted June 26, 2015 Well the thing is, I am not really sure what you are trying to say in this thread. Because when you say "look, no Catholics really believe in hell", the subtext sure sounds like "lel, look at these superstitious rubes who still believe in hell. Talk about behind the times." I'm not really talking about the truth of the doctrine, but its apparent unintelligibility, unacceptability or ineffectiveness. Hell is an extraordinarily terrifying concept, yet precious few seem particularly terrified, neither for themselves or others. The causes could be multiple and I think it's an interesting question. Here are some ideas: - With recent theological developments, for instance Benedict XVI emphasizing that limbo was just theological speculation, or John Paul II's description of going to Hell as a personal choice, Catholics tend to have an optimistic outlook on the afterlife. Hell may exist, but it's only for those very explicitly refusing God, and it only consists in God's absence, not fire and brimstone. - As the theory of evolution becomes cultural baggage, the original sin theory becomes a more abstract concept (I.e. not an actual event in the history of mankind). Thus it becomes harder to understand why for example people outside the Church should be dammed. Vatican II also emphasized the universality of salvation (Gaudium et Spes). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthfinder Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 Hell may exist, but it's only for those very explicitly refusing God, and it only consists in God's absence, not fire and brimstone. - For those who believe in God, the absence of God is far more terrifying than fire and brimstone. It's much like the saying: 'for those who believe, no miracle is needed; for those who don't, no miracle will suffice" - Hell is much the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yaatee Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 How nice of you to examine their consciences for them. I don't have to examine their consciences; they have published them for all to see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 Apparently it's just fine to be judgmental and sexist if one is a little old white lady. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yaatee Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 Well the thing is, I am not really sure what you are trying to say in this thread. Because when you say "look, no Catholics really believe in hell", the subtext sure sounds like "lel, look at these superstitious rubes who still believe in hell. Talk about behind the times." I certainly believe that the Church is suffering a major crisis of faith and that most Catholics at this moment are material heretics if not outright apostates. But then the flip side of that is that I frankly do not care what those people believe, because neither does it represent what the Church believes nor does it have any bearing on the truth of the Church's teaching. What the heretics believe does not matter except inasmuch as we can convince them to abandon their heresies. Beyond that, totally irrelevant, because much like a city's sewage pipes coming from many sources to one central facility, it all ends up in the same place. I care what faithful Catholics and holy priests and bishops believe. Logically true, Nihil. However, the beliefs of US Catholics has a great deal to do with the finances of the church. American Catholics are by far the richest in the world and they give the most to their churches, the Vatican and charities worldwide. Scandal and a breaking of faith patterns can produce much less giving. Consider what happened to giving in the Boston archdiocese, one of the largest in the world, after the scandal involving Cardinal Law. Giving plummeted, which affected all of the charities and churches in the archdiocese. Catholic doctrine is somewhat monolithic (and to some extent, so is Christian doctrine) and once there is a crack in either doctrine or observance or its effect on observance, support and church attendance drops. This is what happened after Humanae Vitae, and after the pedophile priest crisis. You may argue for an intact, integral pre-Vat II Catholic world, but it's gone, and the church must take the consequences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yaatee Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 Ah, so defending the existence of Hell is a white male issue. Very strange, as from all the Christians I know the ones who talk most about demons and Hell are African women. Do yo know what sort of hell they talk about? Specifics? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catlick Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 John Paul II's description of going to Hell as a personal choice, Catholics tend to have an optimistic outlook on the afterlife. Hell may exist, but it's only for those very explicitly refusing God, and it only consists in God's absence, not fire and brimstone. Here's a good example of John Paul II preaching near-heresy, as he also did on matters of sexuality and 'interreligion'. When it comes to Hell, we should be very sceptical of what modern theologians and clergymen say. Nowhere is there a greater temptation to substitute the Word of God for the idol of equality ('all are saved'). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beatitude Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 All your points are true, but irrelevant. I am just making an observation about who on this phorum likes to post about hell. It's mainly men and boys who post and also who appear to believe that only a minority of the human race will ever make it to heaven. To me it's a comment on their maturity and also I suspect their positions in life, or their attitudes towards their positions who they are and their relationship to others. But hardly anyone on this Anglophone predominantly American phorum posts about hell, so even if you did have a proper sample of the world's population to judge from, you'd still be making your judgment on the basis of a tiny number of posts. The lack of posts on hell doesn't mean that no one here really believes in it. It could just be that people are inclined to agree with St Teresa of Avila on the matter: "I do not fear the devil half so much as I fear those who fear him." If you are consumed by the love of Christ, trying your best to lead a good life through his grace, then why would you spend lots of time writing post after post about hell? That would be like me walking across a bridge while peering nervously at the drop beneath me. It makes far more sense for me to look where I'm trying to go. No one ever posts their conscience online for the world to see. Behind each computer is a person whom you know only partially. Even people who do seem gloating may have problems that cause it that we can't know anything about, so it is best to be charitable in your judgment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
veritasluxmea Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 eh, what if you're right and a majority of Christians don't believe in Hell? Or just pretend to? Or don't really think about it? So what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
veritasluxmea Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 Apparently it's just fine to be judgmental and sexist if one is a little old white lady. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yaatee Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 eh, what if you're right and a majority of Christians don't believe in Hell? Or just pretend to? Or don't really think about it? So what? or don't really think about it, I suspect. AND don't believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 Truth is not elected by the majority. Truth is not false because a majority do not believe it. That kind of thinking is ridiculous. There have been plenty of examples of history where the majority supported some grave injustice. It does not matter if the majority believe in hell or do not. Hell exist with or with belief in it. -- Right is right if no one is right and wrong is wrong if everybody is wrong. -Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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