Do we really care about Hell?

[Dr_Asik]

If Christians believe that Hell is a real place where lots of people actually go, and it's the most horrible thing imaginable, and it lasts forever; how come they do so little to prevent others from going there? For example a parent is very concerned about his child going to school, not taking drugs, etc. If this parent believes his child could at any time die and go to hell, shouldn't preventing this be much higher in his priorities? Isn't Hell much worse than failing at school or taking drugs or whatever could happen to you in this life?

Similarly, if Christians think baptism is necessary for salvation, and that outside of salvation our default destination is Hell, shouldn't they be much more concerned about getting people baptised? Isn't this way more important than schools, hospitals, etc.?

Side note: I'm aware the Church says some people not baptised may be saved through some virtual form of baptism, but there's a lot of uncertainty there. Baptism still remains the only way we know one can be saved, as far as I'm aware.

Edited June 25, 2015 by Dr_Asik

[Yaatee]

Several things.  Most people, Christians or otherwise don't believe in Hell.  Christians, believing in hell or not, tend to baptize their children shortly after birth.

It is my understanding that the Catholic Church exempts from hell  those outside its compass like hundreds of millions of Hindus, Buddhists and Shintoists, plus the Jews.  People who honestly don't believe in Christianity are not rejecting hell, and other doctrines,  they just don't believe in them.  Being unbaptised used to send you to limbo; I don't know what the current belief is on that.  To qualify for hell you have to commit a mortal sin, something serious, against church law, to which you assent.  Rejecting a belief because you honestly don't believe in it is not a mortal sin.

[veritasluxmea]

If Christians believe that Hell is a real place where lots of people actually go, and it's the most horrible thing imaginable, and it lasts forever; how come they do so little to prevent others from going there? For example a parent is very concerned about his child going to school, not taking drugs, etc. If this parent believes his child could at any time die and go to hell, shouldn't preventing this be much higher in his priorities? Isn't Hell much worse than failing at school or taking drugs or whatever could happen to you in this life?

Similarly, if Christians think baptism is necessary for salvation, and that outside of salvation our default destination is Hell, shouldn't they be much more concerned about getting people baptised? Isn't this way more important than schools, hospitals, etc.?

Side note: I'm aware the Church says some people not baptised may be saved through some virtual form of baptism, but there's a lot of uncertainty there. Baptism still remains the only way we know one can be saved, as far as I'm aware.

Yawn, try harder yourself lol.

If you honestly believed that WE believed that forcing people into baptism was the best thing we could do for you, would you be ok with us forcing or harassing you into it, by any means we can? Physical harassment, even the law? What, we're just doing what we really believe is best for you! We don't know any better, we just really believe it! Somehow I have a feeling you wouldn't appreciate it. No matter how sincere we belief is, unless you hold it as well, in your world your belief will take priority over your neighbor's. We do our best to make the sacraments and God as available as we can to people. We do our best to make it possible to know and love Him. But like God Himself, we aren't going to force you into anything. And unfortunately our efforts are really bad, often borderline terrible, as almost all of us are still in some early stage of conversion and sanctification ourselves. 

 

It is my understanding that the Catholic Church exempts from hell  those outside its compass like hundreds of millions of Hindus, Buddhists and Shintoists, plus the Jews.  People who honestly don't believe in Christianity are not rejecting hell, and other doctrines,  they just don't believe in them.  Being unbaptised used to send you to limbo; I don't know what the current belief is on that.  To qualify for hell you have to commit a mortal sin, something serious, against church law, to which you assent.  Rejecting a belief because you honestly don't believe in it is not a mortal sin.

Catholics don't exempt anyone from hell. When it comes to non-canonized people's salvation: We. Just. Don't. Know. It's ok to just not know something for sure. It's ok to not really understand something fully. It's ok that it's hard to understand. It really is. Somethings are best understood in their proper context and with with practice of prayer and knowledge of God. Baptism is necessary for salvation, but we know unbaptized people can go to Heaven. We know Christ is the only way to the Father, but we know it's possible he comes to people in ways we don't know right before they die. Just take what you do know and use it to the best of your abilities. 

[Dr_Asik]

So you're basically saying that if you see someone standing on a railway, and there's a train coming, you might inform them of the danger and how they might avoid it, but then you'll respect their choice if they don't believe you? Or if they just prefer getting hit by the train, that's OK?

The answer is: of course not! That person is insane! You'll push them off the rails or call for help or do everything you can to save them. That's your moral duty. In some states I'm pretty sure you would do some prison for telling the police you decided to "respect that person's beliefs".

But Hell is way worse than letting hit by a train; there's no comparison. Yet Christians go about saying if people don't want to believe in Hell, or if they prefer risking it if it exists, that's their choice. What kind of logic is that?

Edited June 25, 2015 by Dr_Asik

[veritasluxmea]

Your logic doesn't add up because we can't force people to go to heaven. Someone who is baptized can still go to hell. I can physically pour water over your head by force, but I can't physically make you go to heaven, or I probably would. I can physically push you out of a train's path, but I can't physically push you off of hell's path. Or else yes, I would. So the question really is what can I do to get someone off the path to Hell, metaphorically speaking? Two things I can come up with: support you, however I can, to make the right choice and pray for you. And yes, I do those things. Or try as best I can anyways. 

[KnightofChrist]

Hell exists and whether or not someone believes in the teachings of the Church or not, whether or not they are members of the Church or not, any soul that departs this life in actual mortal sin, or in original sin alone go straightway to hell. But Christians are not called to be dictators and forcing others to believe as we do. We can warn others of the dangers of hell and how to avoid it but in many cases the person who needs saving from hell doesn't just stand on the railroad tracks as the train is coming they are running towards the train. Anyway we can't really tackle someone that want's to lead a lifestyle that will endanger their soul.

[veritasluxmea]

Actually DA I think you're correct, and this issue was raised in the Ireland Gay Marriage thread with Lux. Catholics who go to Church on Sundays, and then do whatever they want outside of Church (like vote for gay marriage), or even just Catholics who are kind of trying to live the Faith and have a prayer life but still haven't come to maturity with that yet, is a HUGE problem. Vatican II was called into session to address this issue. How can someone be expected to help other people know and love God when they can't even find Him themselves? They really can't, and that's the main heart of the issue here (and what Vat II got at). 

[Dr_Asik]

I've been to Sunday Mass for most of my life in various Parishes and various circumstances, and I've never heard a homily on Hell. Christians could just as well ignore it entirely.

I've seen Christian families raise their children and I've never seen a parent care remotely as much about saving his children from Hell as saving them from physical injury, disease, homelessness, and such worldly considerations that are infinitely less important than the infinite afterlife they claim to believe in.

I see generalized indifference towards the beliefs of non-Christians.

In short, I don't see anyone, even among the few Christians who actually believe in the traditional doctrine on Hell and Salvation, taking the issue remotely as seriously as the doctrine says it is.

Edited June 25, 2015 by Dr_Asik

[KnightofChrist]

If you want to hear sermons on Hell and other traditional doctrines it is better to go to a traditional parish that offers the Latin Mass. I'm just saying.

[Nihil Obstat]

I have heard several sermons on hell. They are never fun. Very necessary though.

[Yaatee]

What I find interesting is who posts about hell on the Phatmass Forum.  Overwhelmingly , it's the men--or boys.  And I suppose that it's mainly white men.

There are a few women, like me, who post about hell, but not many, and we don't seem to bring it up as a topic.  Also, there has been recently, on Phatmass, a good deal of discussion about how many people are going to hell, sometimes using rather gloating descriptions.  Boy, a lot of people are going, but not me!!  So you have white men posting about hell, some in a gloating fashion.  Why is this? 

I think that most Christians don't believe in hell.  I suspect that most people don't.  I also suspect that many otherwise believing Catholics, including many priests and religious, if it comes down to it, don't either.  Hindus and Buddhists don't. Jews don't, not even for Adoph Hitler.  I think that there was a contest, during WWII, about what was the most appropriate punishment for Hitler.  The winner went to someone who suggested that he be forced to live with his mother-in-law. 

I think that there is a wide streak of resentment, envy, unresolved anger, and desire for revenge among people who bring up hell.  They like to write about it, defend it, and think, "Boy, some time, some day, they'll get theirs!!"

Edited June 25, 2015 by Yaatee
punctuation space

[Not The Philosopher]

What I find interesting is who posts about hell on the Phatmass Forum.  Overwhelmingly , it's the men--or boys.  And I suppose that it's mainly white men.

There are a few women, like me, who post about hell, but not many, and we don't seem to bring it up as a topic.  Also, there has been recently, on Phatmass, a good deal of discussion about how many people are going to hell, sometimes using rather gloating descriptions.  Boy, a lot of people are going, but not me!!  So you have white men posting about hell, some in a gloating fashion.  Why is this? 

I think that most Christians don't believe in hell.  I suspect that most people don't.  I also suspect that many otherwise believing Catholics, including many priests and religious, if it comes down to it, don't either.  Hindus and Buddhists don't. Jews don't, not even for Adoph Hitler.  I think that there was a contest, during WWII, about what was the most appropriate punishment for Hitler.  The winner went to someone who suggested that he be forced to live with his mother-in-law. 

I think that there is a wide streak of resentment, envy, unresolved anger, and desire for revenge among people who bring up hell.  They like to write about it, defend it, and think, "Boy, some time, some day, they'll get theirs!!"

1. A person's skin colour doesn't determine the truth or falsehood of what they say.
2. A person's sex doesn't determine the truth or falsehood of what they say.
3. Truth is not determined by how many people believe in something.
4. This is a Catholic forum, so it seems appropriate that you'll find Catholic beliefs discussed on here, much like how you'd find Hindu beliefs discussed on a Hindu forum.
 

 

[Benedictus]

People can choose God or to be seperated from God. They could already, so to say, be in a state of hell within their minds and if their hearts aren't open to God to dwell and reign there. People in that state are more open to moral corruption and sin, easily distorting Gods love and creation. If you take some people to church it would pain them to be there and listen to the prayers (I've tried it on people), so imagine that pain and anger magnified if they coudn't get away? God is an all consuming fire of love. That same fire can be a welcome purification or feel like a torment. A spiritual prison, or degree of seperation, is giving those souls what they seek and is a form (or process) of giving a soul freedom and mercy. But to a Catholic such an existence would be pure hell state! I hope all souls will eventually be reconciled to God, but I can't assume they will be. I pray for all those I know, the world and also myself (I always need prayers as I make mistakes and raise questions when I'm thinking things out, which can bring flaming.  Yep, punitive as hell)

[KnightofChrist]

What I find interesting is who posts about hell on the Phatmass Forum.  Overwhelmingly , it's the men--or boys.  And I suppose that it's mainly white men.

One slight correction, I am a He-Man by the power of Gray Skull and yes I do have a Battle Cat. But he is green with orange or yellow stripes, I can't remember I don't pay much attention to things like that.

 

[Dr_Asik]

I would say it's a vanishing minority of people, even among practicing Christians, that *really* believes in Hell. Even among those who admit that Hell exists, pretty much no one acts as if it did; as if most of humanity could end up in such terrible, endless torment, including oneself and all their loved ones. No one really feels the overriding, urgent moral duty to save their neighbor from Hell, as it seems to me logically follows.