Lux Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 When I heard that Ireland was the first country to legalize same-sex marriage by popular vote (62% in support), I was initially surprised because of the heavily Catholic population. Especially in the United States, younger Catholics support gay marriage at a higher rate than the rest of the population (http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/10/16/young-u-s-catholics-overwhelmingly-accepting-of-homosexuality/). A few articles attempt to offer an explanation (see, for example, http://theweek.com/articles/557418/why-are-catholics-supportive-gay-marriage) but I was wondering what you think. Why do you think that such a high percentage of Catholics support gay marriage? The Supreme Court is supposed to release a decision on Obergefell v. Hodges by the end of the month, and I've been seeing a lot of articles in the news related to this recently, so I've been giving it a lot of thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catlick Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 (edited) If you are Catholic, you believe in what the Church teaches on (a) the Sacrament of Matrimony, (b) the sinfulness of sodomy. These two points are incompatible with any support for 'gay marriage'. So it is inherently impossible for a Catholic to support 'gay marriage'; the moment he does, he becomes an apostate. If the question is why do people who identify as Roman Catholic and who attend Mass at least every Sunday support gay marriage, than the answer is that since the 1960s a large part of the Roman Catholic clergy has fallen into the heresy of Modernism and has misguided the faithful. Edited June 25, 2015 by Catlick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lux Posted June 26, 2015 Author Share Posted June 26, 2015 If you are Catholic, you believe in what the Church teaches on (a) the Sacrament of Matrimony, (b) the sinfulness of sodomy. These two points are incompatible with any support for 'gay marriage'. So it is inherently impossible for a Catholic to support 'gay marriage'; the moment he does, he becomes an apostate. 75% of Catholics between the ages of 18 and 29 say that they support same sex marriage. Does this mean that 75% of Catholics between the ages of 18 and 29 are not actually Catholic, but apostates? The percent would be even higher if you look at those who say homosexuality should be accepted (85%). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 75% of Catholics between the ages of 18 and 29 say that they support same sex marriage. Does this mean that 75% of Catholics between the ages of 18 and 29 are not actually Catholic, but apostates? The percent would be even higher if you look at those who say homosexuality should be accepted (85%). That is quite possible. [13] Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat. [14] How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 75% of Catholics between the ages of 18 and 29 say that they support same sex marriage. Does this mean that 75% of Catholics between the ages of 18 and 29 are not actually Catholic, but apostates? The percent would be even higher if you look at those who say homosexuality should be accepted (85%). I think it's safe to say that a lot of them are CINOs (Catholic In Name Only). Though it's probably best left to God to judge the degree of personal culpability in every case. Many are very poorly catechized. I wonder how many never even heard the Church's actual teachings on this subject from their pastors, or teachers (if they went to Catholic schools or CCD). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norseman82 Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 (edited) and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it! Is that meant as a pun (considering the topic)? Edited June 26, 2015 by Norseman82 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 Is that meant as a pun (considering the topic)? No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peace Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 As far as the Church is concerned, I believe that people who are baptized in a Catholic Church are considered members thereof unless excommunicated. I would imagine that you can point to almost any Catholic on the planet and find areas where their beliefs or actions are inconsistent with what the Church teaches. At least for me, I would feel a bit pretentious or holier-than-though if I were to start referring to my brothers and sisters in Christ as "Catholic in Name Only" or implying that they are not "real" Catholics because my actions and beliefs are relatively more consistent with the Church than theirs. If that were OK, one would think that the saints or others who have done a better job of following God's call than us, would be justified in pointing the finger at you or me and saying "those are not real Catholics." Somehow, I do not think that would be their attitude towards us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 Legally perhaps, but theologically speaking apostates, heretics, and those in a state of mortal sin are not a part of Christ's Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peace Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 Fair enough. I would think that only God truly knows whether someone is in a state of mortal sin. And I would think that only the Church can declare someone a heretic or an apostate. So I am not sure if you or me would be justified in calling another baptized Catholic as not being a real Catholic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 Fair enough. I would think that only God truly knows whether someone is in a state of mortal sin. And I would think that only the Church can declare someone a heretic or an apostate. So I am not sure if you or me would be justified in calling another baptized Catholic as not being a real Catholic. One can be an heretic or an apostate without anyone recognizing him as such. The Church in Her authority can judge and punish someone for heresy and apostasy, but if She never becomes aware of those issues, She would not instigate those judgments or responses. Just as a for instance, if Mr. X here on Phatmass acts in an impeccably Catholic manner here on the forum, but in private fully believes that Christ has only one nature, then he is still an heretic. We may not know it, the Church here on earth may not know it, but he is still an heretic. An occult (hidden) heretic, in this case. And therefore not truly a part of the Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peace Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 One can be an heretic or an apostate without anyone recognizing him as such. The Church in Her authority can judge and punish someone for heresy and apostasy, but if She never becomes aware of those issues, She would not instigate those judgments or responses. Just as a for instance, if Mr. X here on Phatmass acts in an impeccably Catholic manner here on the forum, but in private fully believes that Christ has only one nature, then he is still an heretic. We may not know it, the Church here on earth may not know it, but he is still an heretic. An occult (hidden) heretic, in this case. And therefore not truly a part of the Church.I t I think Mr. X would be a heretic if he was fully aware that the Church has made a dogmatic teaching on the dual nature of our blessed Lord, and chose to believe otherwise nevertheless. Does simply being wrong put one outside of the Church? I would be willing to bet that I am wrong on some points (and perhaps even you may be). I certainly am not aware of everything the Church teaches (but perhaps I should be). I think that you and I can say legally whether someone is outside of the Church (I think we can know if someone has been excommunicated). Whether someone is truly (or theologically, as you put it) outside of the Church seems to be something that only God or the Church can determine. Based on your post above you seem to agree with me on this point. So - if you and I are not capable of making that determination, how would we be justified in calling a baptized Catholic "not a real Catholic" or "a Catholic in name only"? What ground would one have for doing so? But let's say that someone does know what the Church has taught and still chooses to believe that our blessed Lord has only one nature - is that a grave sin? I honestly don't know. I would think that if Mr. X otherwise follows the commandments and loves God he has a decent chance of going to Heaven, even if his theology so happens to be incorrect. In other words, I am not so sure if being a heretic means that you are going to Hell (but correct me if I am wrong). Does being a heretic, in and of itself, put one outside of the Church (in the real/theological sense)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthfinder Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 A priest reminded several years ago that regardless of whether a person is morally culpable, sin (which includes heresy) is still objectively ordered against God and nature, and there are natural consequences of these sins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 I think Mr. X would be a heretic if he was fully aware that the Church has made a dogmatic teaching on the dual nature of our blessed Lord, and chose to believe otherwise nevertheless. Does simply being wrong put one outside of the Church? I would be willing to bet that I am wrong on some points (and perhaps even you may be). I certainly am not aware of everything the Church teaches (but perhaps I should be). I think that you and I can say legally whether someone is outside of the Church (I think we can know if someone has been excommunicated). Whether someone is truly (or theologically, as you put it) outside of the Church seems to be something that only God or the Church can determine. Based on your post above you seem to agree with me on this point. So - if you and I are not capable of making that determination, how would we be justified in calling a baptized Catholic "not a real Catholic" or "a Catholic in name only"? What ground would one have for doing so? But let's say that someone does know what the Church has taught and still chooses to believe that our blessed Lord has only one nature - is that a grave sin? I honestly don't know. I would think that if Mr. X otherwise follows the commandments and loves God he has a decent chance of going to Heaven, even if his theology so happens to be incorrect. In other words, I am not so sure if being a heretic means that you are going to Hell (but correct me if I am wrong). Does being a heretic, in and of itself, put one outside of the Church (in the real/theological sense)? I had forgotten to specify in my post, but Mr. X is fully culpable for his heresy. And yes, heresy is a mortal sin. Mr. X is therefore not a member of the Church, even though externally he may appear to be. Being an heretic is sufficient for impeding one's salvation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice_nine Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 A priest reminded several years ago that regardless of whether a person is morally culpable, sin (which includes heresy) is still objectively ordered against God and nature, and there are natural consequences of these sins. so believing the wrong thing even if you don't know it's wrong can have negative consequences? So if my understanding of the trinity is off then I'm going to suffer from that? Or if I have no idea what the difference between Christ having two natures or one means in any practical sense bad things are coming for me? . . . c.rap I hope there's not gonna be a pencil and paper test at the pearly gates or I am super screwed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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