New Book about Rockford Poor Clares!

[MarysLittleFlower]

I'm sorry I'm really confused because I'm having trouble understanding the concepts and language...

Sr Mary Catherine if the vow of chastity is consecrating virginity to Christ how can a non virgin ever make this vow? A person can't offer what they don't have... That is why I got confused with what you described - living virginally. How can this be for non virgins? Maybe I'm missing something... Is it true that non virgins can be nuns and make the vow?

The way I've been understanding it... Is that virginity is lost through a deliberate completed act. This is my understanding of the definition of St Thomas please correct me if I'm wrong it makes more sense to me than the narrow medical definition in which someone who went through a change accidentally or through lack of choice is not a virgin, whereas another person could be considered a virgin though they have done various impure acts deliberately. With St Thomas definition both of these mistakes are avoided. That means that not only the marital act takes away virginity but it needs to be deliberate. I'm confused about the comment on older texts of canonical commentary mentioned by Sponsa Christi - how do they relate to St Thomas? Am I even understanding him?

Then with religious life my understanding was that a non virgin can't offer their virginity which is lost, so they can't be a CV, however she can make a vow of perfect chastity. Perfect meaning complete abstinence offered to God and only belonging to Him. There's also a revelation to a mystic (Conchita) that though a person can't recover their own lost virginity, in a high level of union with Christ He could communicate His own virginity to the soul... But His, not theirs. 

Am I incorrect about anything?

Edited June 26, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower

[Sr Mary Catharine OP]

MLF, if someone has lost their physical virginity through engaging in intercourse or through marriage, no that can not be recovered. But virginity for the sake of Christ may be recovered by penance. Virginity is not just about the body although we shouldn't discount or minimize the importance and beauty of both the physical and spiritual virginity offered and consecrated to God just because we live in a society that thinks it of little value.

So, our vow of chastity as religious is offering and consecrating to God in the here and now and the future. We are not just vowing to abstain from venereal pleasure and marriage we are also vowing to give our love and our entire beings exclusively and totally to God. The vow of chastity is about both the virtue of chastity (which every person must foster according to their state in life) and the virtue of virginity.

A consecrated Virgin is consecrated explicitly and exclusively as virgin and spouse (of Christ of course!). She doesn't make vows of poverty or obedience or promise to live an ecclesiastically approved rule of life.

I don't know about that revelation to the mystic. It's safer to stay with the Churches teachings.

[beatitude]

MLF, you seem to be getting unduly anxious about this. Many people have told you that not being a virgin is not an obstacle to religious life, including Sister M. Catharine, who is not only a sister but also a novice mistress (in one of the orders most closely associated with study and theological knowledge, too.  ) Yet you keep asking the same question. You have said you suffer from scruples, and those are like a spiritual version of the shingles - they itch and itch, but the itchiness doesn't stop the more you scratch it. In the same way a person with a scrupulosity problem can ask and ask, and read and read, but their worry will never go away through doing this.

Vocational discernment is a two-way process. You will not learn if you have a call to be a nun on an Internet forum. As the Poor Clare nuns at Hawarden remind discerners, "We have to be able to see it too." You've been writing on here for a long time about a strong sense of calling to religious life, but you haven't mentioned contacting any communities with a view to seriously discerning with them - have you talked to any? I think at this stage you really need to do so.

[MarysLittleFlower]

MLF, you seem to be getting unduly anxious about this. Many people have told you that not being a virgin is not an obstacle to religious life, including Sister M. Catharine, who is not only a sister but also a novice mistress (in one of the orders most closely associated with study and theological knowledge, too.  ) Yet you keep asking the same question. You have said you suffer from scruples, and those are like a spiritual version of the shingles - they itch and itch, but the itchiness doesn't stop the more you scratch it. In the same way a person with a scrupulosity problem can ask and ask, and read and read, but their worry will never go away through doing this.

Vocational discernment is a two-way process. You will not learn if you have a call to be a nun on an Internet forum. As the Poor Clare nuns at Hawarden remind discerners, "We have to be able to see it too." You've been writing on here for a long time about a strong sense of calling to religious life, but you haven't mentioned contacting any communities with a view to seriously discerning with them - have you talked to any? I think at this stage you really need to do so.

Beatitude, the reason I asked is because I thought I had it all figured out from past discussions but I got confused by the language and terminology. As for communities, yes I have recently met with one at the advice of my SD, but I tend not to post about those things on the phorum.. Mostly because I am already discussing it with my SD. If I'm ever accepted somewhere I would come here to let people know and ask for prayers but now I'm still in the stage of discernment and I need to pay off my loans too..  I only began to do more active discernment recently

[MarysLittleFlower]

MLF, if someone has lost their physical virginity through engaging in intercourse or through marriage, no that can not be recovered. But virginity for the sake of Christ may be recovered by penance. Virginity is not just about the body although we shouldn't discount or minimize the importance and beauty of both the physical and spiritual virginity offered and consecrated to God just because we live in a society that thinks it of little value.

So, our vow of chastity as religious is offering and consecrating to God in the here and now and the future. We are not just vowing to abstain from venereal pleasure and marriage we are also vowing to give our love and our entire beings exclusively and totally to God. The vow of chastity is about both the virtue of chastity (which every person must foster according to their state in life) and the virtue of virginity.

A consecrated Virgin is consecrated explicitly and exclusively as virgin and spouse (of Christ of course!). She doesn't make vows of poverty or obedience or promise to live an ecclesiastically approved rule of life.

I don't know about that revelation to the mystic. It's safer to stay with the Churches teachings.

Thanks Sr Mary Catherine I still don't have a great understanding about it but I think I need to review some concepts... Maybe I'll ask my SD later this summer too. A lot of my worry about this is not just theological but personal so I figured out I might need some help from my SD in how to deal with pain about my past. Thank you for replying  

[Yaatee]

Thanks Sr Mary Catherine I still don't have a great understanding about it but I think I need to review some concepts... Maybe I'll ask my SD later this summer too. A lot of my worry about this is not just theological but personal so I figured out I might need some help from my SD in how to deal with pain about my past. Thank you for replying  

 

Galatians 2:20

English Standard Version)
I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me.  And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
 

(I couldn't find a list of Catholic-accepted English Bibles that corresponded with the translations I found.  All closely resembled each other.)

[AveMariaPurissima]

MLF, if someone has lost their physical virginity through engaging in intercourse or through marriage, no that can not be recovered. But virginity for the sake of Christ may be recovered by penance. Virginity is not just about the body although we shouldn't discount or minimize the importance and beauty of both the physical and spiritual virginity offered and consecrated to God just because we live in a society that thinks it of little value.

So, our vow of chastity as religious is offering and consecrating to God in the here and now and the future. We are not just vowing to abstain from venereal pleasure and marriage we are also vowing to give our love and our entire beings exclusively and totally to God. The vow of chastity is about both the virtue of chastity (which every person must foster according to their state in life) and the virtue of virginity.

A consecrated Virgin is consecrated explicitly and exclusively as virgin and spouse (of Christ of course!). She doesn't make vows of poverty or obedience or promise to live an ecclesiastically approved rule of life.

I don't know about that revelation to the mystic. It's safer to stay with the Churches teachings.

Not to de-rail too much, but this made me think of the prayer of St. Thomas Aquinas for purity:

Dear Jesus, I know that every perfect gift,
and especially that of chastity,
depends on the power of Your providence.
Without You a mere creature can do nothing.
Therefore, I beg You to defend by Your grace
the chastity and purity of my body and soul.
And if I have ever sensed or imagined anything
that could stain my chastity and purity,
blot it out, Supreme Lord of my powers,
that I may advance with a pure heart in Your love and service,
offering myself on the most pure altar of Your divinity
all the days of my life. Amen.

(Source) (emphasis mine)

[veritasluxmea]

Beatitude, the reason I asked is because I thought I had it all figured out from past discussions but I got confused by the language and terminology. As for communities, yes I have recently met with one at the advice of my SD, but I tend not to post about those things on the phorum.. Mostly because I am already discussing it with my SD. If I'm ever accepted somewhere I would come here to let people know and ask for prayers but now I'm still in the stage of discernment and I need to pay off my loans too..  I only began to do more active discernment recently

I understand, I do something similar. I'm not paying off loans and have finally entered into a period where I am free to enter a community, but I don't like posting the steps I'm taking on VS. I just keep it between my SD, family, community and myself for now. It's just not something I'd announce until it was official and I really was leaving. It just feels so personal, discernment doesn't really reach a stage where it's public until you have actually entered into aspirancy with the community (when you have officially been accepted and will be entering). Seeking entrance is a very internal time and something I much prefer to keep with myself and the adults who are a part of that step; vocation directress, SD, my father. Because it's such an important part of my life I don't mind friends and family knowing I'm planning to join a religious order at some point, but no need for details. I don't know, but that's how I prefer to keep it and I think a lot of people do it that way.   

[Yaatee]

Seems reasonable....

 

[MarysLittleFlower]

Galatians 2:20

English Standard Version)
I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me.  And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
 

(I couldn't find a list of Catholic-accepted English Bibles that corresponded with the translations I found.  All closely resembled each other.)

I looked it up in my Catholic Bible and looking it up made me want to read more of the Bible I don't read it enough... thanks for the reminder! that's a beautiful verse.

Edited June 27, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower

[MarysLittleFlower]

I understand, I do something similar. I'm not paying off loans and have finally entered into a period where I am free to enter a community, but I don't like posting the steps I'm taking on VS. I just keep it between my SD, family, community and myself for now. It's just not something I'd announce until it was official and I really was leaving. It just feels so personal, discernment doesn't really reach a stage where it's public until you have actually entered into aspirancy with the community (when you have officially been accepted and will be entering). Seeking entrance is a very internal time and something I much prefer to keep with myself and the adults who are a part of that step; vocation directress, SD, my father. Because it's such an important part of my life I don't mind friends and family knowing I'm planning to join a religious order at some point, but no need for details. I don't know, but that's how I prefer to keep it and I think a lot of people do it that way.   

That's much how I feel... I'm in the stage where I'm just beginning to visit communities. But it just doesn't seem such a "big thing" to post as entering somewhere. And if I were to apply, I'd probably just say that I'm going if I were accepted... it's just how I feel comfortable for myself.

[Carmelshrimp]

Looks an interesting documentary; hope we can see it in England when it comes out. As an aside, I can promise everybody that we do know the difference between "novice" and "novitiate" on this side of the pond.  Abbie Reese just got them mixed up, simple as that:)