Avoiding debate

[BarbTherese]

I am responding to a post http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/137805-living-in-the-world/?do=findComment&comment=2729528 in Vocation Station (no debating) into Open Mic  to avoid a debate in the unfolding of the thread.

From another perspective, consider that you really have not entered into your trial. Christ was driven into the desert, and it was there alone that he had to face his greatest temptations, greater than any he was surrounded by "in the world." It was alone on the cross, too, that he cried out asking why God had forsaken him, and it was once his Apostles left his side that he had to face enter into his final solitude. If you are looking for peace once you enter into solitude, you may have a lot to learn once you are there. Writers like Thomas Merton often talk about busybody monks and nuns who never really learn what solitude is, because they never really enter into it even though they are surrounded by it. I sometimes think that we should be careful what we wish for...we want a vocation, a meaning to our lives, but to have a vocation (in the broad sense, not referring to religious life) is the scariest and hardest thing in the world, because then you have to follow it, and what is the story of our lives but one running away after another, like Jonah boarding a ship to escape his call. The great paradox is that to have a vocation is to have the way by which we become truly who we are...and we don't want to be who we are, it's not easy to do, especially when you enter into solitude, because there you have no distractions to entertain you while you avoid yourself.

​Well said.  There is the idealistic image of whatever and what it will be like - and then there is the reality of living out the whatever.  When imagination meets reality.

We cannot really compare the different vocations stating "more" in this vocation or "less' in that etc. etc. - what we can be assured of is that The Lord will send sufficient Peace and Joy, and allow sufficient suffering and The Cross to make a great saint of one, no matter the call and vocation.  We can be assured that every vocational journey will be absolutely unique.  I think that there is a difference too between what is an appeal to the senses and one's 'sensual pallet' and/or one's imagination........... and the reality and actual journey in a certain vocation - they will not of necessity meet - and perhaps often or even never.  As one journey's in a vocational state one comes to appreciate all vocations and how they speak to each other and are important in the life of The Church.  I think too that in the spiritual life as one journeys one comes to love The Church more and more, as well as an ardent desire and zeal for the salvation of souls - and not dependant on one's vocation.  We give thanks for and rejoice in all vocations.

While on the theological objective level, religious life is regarded as superior.  Nothing whatsoever is superior to God's Will.  Discernment is never about striving for the most theologically superior vocation, rather it is about discerning out God's Will for a person and hopefully with growing detachment.  A desire more that The Will of God be done and in a detached spirit, rather than one's personal ambitions be fulfilled, even the most lofty and most spiritual of ambitions.

[MarysLittleFlower]

I am responding to a post http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/137805-living-in-the-world/?do=findComment&comment=2729528 in Vocation Station (no debating) into Open Mic  to avoid a debate in the unfolding of the thread.

​Well said.  There is the idealistic image of whatever and what it will be like - and then there is the reality of living out the whatever.  When imagination meets reality.

We cannot really compare the different vocations stating "more" in this vocation or "less' in that etc. etc. - what we can be assured of is that The Lord will send sufficient Peace and Joy, and allow sufficient suffering and The Cross to make a great saint of one, no matter the call and vocation.  We can be assured that every vocational journey will be absolutely unique.  I think that there is a difference too between what is an appeal to the senses and one's 'sensual pallet' and/or one's imagination........... and the reality and actual journey in a certain vocation - they will not of necessity meet - and perhaps often or even never.  As one journey's in a vocational state one comes to appreciate all vocations and how they speak to each other and are important in the life of The Church.  I think too that in the spiritual life as one journeys one comes to love The Church more and more, as well as an ardent desire and zeal for the salvation of souls - and not dependant on one's vocation.  We give thanks for and rejoice in all vocations.

While on the theological objective level, religious life is regarded as superior.  Nothing whatsoever is superior to God's Will.  Discernment is never about striving for the most theologically superior vocation, rather it is about discerning out God's Will for a person and hopefully with growing detachment.  A desire more that The Will of God be done and in a detached spirit, rather than one's personal ambitions be fulfilled, even the most lofty and most spiritual of ambitions.

​Hi Barbara, thanks for the reply, but to be honest I'm a bit puzzled why you posted this in Open Mic.. l mean, it's only something to be considered "debate" if you think I would really disagree, - or maybe you just weren't sure? Anyways.. I hope you took a look at my response to the above quoted reply as well I am not saying that we should seek a vocation out of ambition... even though religious life is a higher state, it is so because of God's Will, and our task is simply to do His Will whatever it is because that is what holiness is - even if we're not called to this higher state.. it's like St Therese talked about different types of flowers. Just to clarify as well, my thread wasn't about feeling called to stay in the world and wanting religious life because of an idealized version of it. It could be that my view is idealized and that's a process of discernment and visiting communities to figure that out. But for myself, my whole process has been about trying to figure out if my discernment is just my will, or His Will..  the specific thread was about the desire to spend more time in prayer and wondering if maybe God would call a person to that sort of vocation - but that's up to Him, and He could call to something else. I just wanted to say that I don't really consider your post to be "debating" and I didn't consider the replies to me in the thread as being debating, since they didn't say things that I even disagreed with... just clarifying. God bless you!

Edited June 23, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower

[MarysLittleFlower]

Also i think God often calls the litle weak souls to religous life though its a highr state it doesnt mean the person is better. Its a mystery. But what I meant is that even though its a higher state not all souls become religious. If God leads them to it though that's an indication it could be His Will and His call.

[Era Might]

I am responding to a post http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/137805-living-in-the-world/?do=findComment&comment=2729528 in Vocation Station (no debating) into Open Mic  to avoid a debate in the unfolding of the thread.

​Well said.  There is the idealistic image of whatever and what it will be like - and then there is the reality of living out the whatever.  When imagination meets reality.

We cannot really compare the different vocations stating "more" in this vocation or "less' in that etc. etc. - what we can be assured of is that The Lord will send sufficient Peace and Joy, and allow sufficient suffering and The Cross to make a great saint of one, no matter the call and vocation.  We can be assured that every vocational journey will be absolutely unique.  I think that there is a difference too between what is an appeal to the senses and one's 'sensual pallet' and/or one's imagination........... and the reality and actual journey in a certain vocation - they will not of necessity meet - and perhaps often or even never.  As one journey's in a vocational state one comes to appreciate all vocations and how they speak to each other and are important in the life of The Church.  I think too that in the spiritual life as one journeys one comes to love The Church more and more, as well as an ardent desire and zeal for the salvation of souls - and not dependant on one's vocation.  We give thanks for and rejoice in all vocations.

While on the theological objective level, religious life is regarded as superior.  Nothing whatsoever is superior to God's Will.  Discernment is never about striving for the most theologically superior vocation, rather it is about discerning out God's Will for a person and hopefully with growing detachment.  A desire more that The Will of God be done and in a detached spirit, rather than one's personal ambitions be fulfilled, even the most lofty and most spiritual of ambitions.

I was listening to a talk by Fr. Leo Clifford (highly recommended, you can watch them on YouTube) and he was talking about St. Peter on Mt. Tabor during the Transfiguration, saying to Jesus how it is good to remain here with you always. But in the moment of truth, Peter did not stay with Jesus, and denied that he even knew him, and Fr. Leo was talking about coming to the truth of who we are, which can only be done by understanding our personal sins and weaknesses, which become our unique path to holiness. It seems that every genuine life is utterly unique, because every person lives in their own context. Even in religious life every person is living a different vocation, if they are truly living. There is no generic monk or nun, they all have to discover a path that is theirs alone, but they have others to help them do that, both the founders they are imitating and the people with them in community. But living in community can also be a hindrance, because we mistake a way of life for actually living. This is true in the world too, we get married or get a job and think that these things define us, and we are content to have the outward form of life without realizing that we are meant to discover ourselves within them, not forget ourselves or, worse, adopt a fake self. In that sense I think you're right about every vocation being so unique. As you say, the idealization and the reality are very different, and I think that's because we realize that we don't fit into the situation we have entered...which means one of two things, either it's the wrong situation for us OR we have to truly enter in deeply and become a new self, a true self, because the person we think we are will never be at home in that situation. For every person, that transformation is absolutely unique and personal, and I think that is really what a vocation is, not the outward form of life, but the process of self-discovery within that outward form. We rarely entire into our own lives with such purposeful intention, regardless of what form of life we have...and I think once a person discovers that purposeful intention and awareness, they have discovered vocation.

[BarbTherese]

Undoubtedly, religious life is the state of perfection because of the three vows of poverty, chastity and obedience.  As stated above by MLF   it does not mean that those in the state of perfection are perfect.  The state of perfection (religious life) and the way of perfection are two different entities.  One could be in the state of perfection without travelling in the way of perfection - and one could be outside the state of perfection yet travelling the way of perfection.  This can be seen, for one example only, by the fact that not all in religious life are declared saints - rather our saints are drawn from all the vocations.  I think that we probably have more saints in religious life, also due to the fact that they recorded their spiritual journey, and/or that their spiritual journey was intimately witnessed by those with them in the religious state - i.e. we know more about their intimate spiritual life than possibly those outside of religious life.  I do think and very strongly, however, that we do need saints drawn from all the vocations as role models for one.  It is very important too, I also think, that we need more contemporary texts indicating how a person may travel the way of perfection in any vocation at all, not only religious life.  Certainly, this has been pointed out by many of our classical saints of previous times, but not all are able to translate their writings and the dynamic into their contemporary understanding.

Those outside of religious life might be living poverty, chastity and obedience with heroic virtue, meaning that they are travelling the way of perfection, without being in the state of perfection. 

[BarbTherese]

​Hi Barbara, thanks for the reply, but to be honest I'm a bit puzzled why you posted this in Open Mic.. l mean, it's only something to be considered "debate" if you think I would really disagree, - or maybe you just weren't sure? Anyways.. I hope you took a look at my response to the above quoted reply as well I am not saying that we should seek a vocation out of ambition... even though religious life is a higher state, it is so because of God's Will, and our task is simply to do His Will whatever it is because that is what holiness is - even if we're not called to this higher state.. it's like St Therese talked about different types of flowers. Just to clarify as well, my thread wasn't about feeling called to stay in the world and wanting religious life because of an idealized version of it. It could be that my view is idealized and that's a process of discernment and visiting communities to figure that out. But for myself, my whole process has been about trying to figure out if my discernment is just my will, or His Will..  the specific thread was about the desire to spend more time in prayer and wondering if maybe God would call a person to that sort of vocation - but that's up to Him, and He could call to something else. I just wanted to say that I don't really consider your post to be "debating" and I didn't consider the replies to me in the thread as being debating, since they didn't say things that I even disagreed with... just clarifying. God bless you!

​God bless you also, MLF.

The reason I have responded outside of Vocations Forum is not due to your response or responses in particular, rather I was wary that if I kept posting, things might develop into a debate in VS where debate is against the rules.  I moved my response here into Open Mic to avoid that.

In most all vocations if not all where the spiritual life is being lived with a certain ardour and integrity, there are going to be times when one will desire more time and aloneness for prayer.  And of course, some are called to the monastic life, where the whole way of life will be focused and structured carefully around much time for aloneness and prayer.  Discernment certainly begins before one commits oneself to a certain vocation and in religious life this discernment continues up to Final Vows.

I don't know how old you are, MLF, but I really do think that you are making a good work of discerning - very often it is not an easy road at all and many factors can enter in to both clarify and at times confuse.  I am now very long in the tooth at almost 70yrs and like all "long toothers" have many experiences under my belt and been on this same road of my vocational call for over 30 years now, well over.  It has been a roller coaster - but one I do not regret, rather I give thanks.  If I were asked to repeat it, then I surely would - all of it.

Edited June 23, 2015 by BarbaraTherese

[BarbTherese]

No matter what one's vocation in life might prove to be, one is not alone in it for The Lord is right in it with one and every single step of the way and He will be providing for one's holiness at every point.  It is a question of one's responses.......of relationship.

Era Might: " It seems that every genuine life is utterly unique, because every person lives in their own context. Even in religious life every person is living a different vocation, if they are truly living. There is no generic monk or nun, they all have to discover a path that is theirs alone, but they have others to help them do that, both the founders they are imitating and the people with them in community. But living in community can also be a hindrance, because we mistake a way of life for actually living. This is true in the world too, we get married or get a job and think that these things define us, and we are content to have the outward form of life without realizing that we are meant to discover ourselves within them, not forget ourselves or, worse, adopt a fake self."

The above is spot on in my book and this is why sound spiritual direction is vitally important and Pope Benedict has pointed out that spiritual direction is necessary even for those in the laity who are taking The Gospel and their spirituality seriously  here     It can be very easy, too easy, to mistake outward form for our true self and investing self totally into that outward form and as defining one, without really discovering who one really is and is being called to be.  And who one really is is the stuff of holiness, it is to be holy, living a holy life.  Sometimes such a way of being and living is never remarked nor evident at all in any outward manner as in the case of St Therese of Lisieux.  Her fellow nuns regarded her as a good sort of Carmelite, but nothing outstanding.  Her consistently remarkable interior life became evident really only after her death.  Well is she termed the saint who lived an ordinary life in an extraordinary manner.  Hers was the way of close loving relationship with God throughout her early life and then throughout her Carmelite journey.

Edited June 23, 2015 by BarbaraTherese

[marigold]

I was listening to a talk by Fr. Leo Clifford (highly recommended, you can watch them on YouTube) and he was talking about St. Peter on Mt. Tabor during the Transfiguration, saying to Jesus how it is good to remain here with you always. But in the moment of truth, Peter did not stay with Jesus, and denied that he even knew him, and Fr. Leo was talking about coming to the truth of who we are, which can only be done by understanding our personal sins and weaknesses, which become our unique path to holiness. It seems that every genuine life is utterly unique, because every person lives in their own context. Even in religious life every person is living a different vocation, if they are truly living. There is no generic monk or nun, they all have to discover a path that is theirs alone, but they have others to help them do that, both the founders they are imitating and the people with them in community. But living in community can also be a hindrance, because we mistake a way of life for actually living. This is true in the world too, we get married or get a job and think that these things define us, and we are content to have the outward form of life without realizing that we are meant to discover ourselves within them, not forget ourselves or, worse, adopt a fake self. In that sense I think you're right about every vocation being so unique. As you say, the idealization and the reality are very different, and I think that's because we realize that we don't fit into the situation we have entered...which means one of two things, either it's the wrong situation for us OR we have to truly enter in deeply and become a new self, a true self, because the person we think we are will never be at home in that situation. For every person, that transformation is absolutely unique and personal, and I think that is really what a vocation is, not the outward form of life, but the process of self-discovery within that outward form. We rarely entire into our own lives with such purposeful intention, regardless of what form of life we have...and I think once a person discovers that purposeful intention and awareness, they have discovered vocation.

​This is excellent. I want to copy it down and keep re-reading it.