living in the world

[BarbTherese]

Thanks for the reply Barbara... I thought it might help if I described it this way to see where I'm coming from. When I became Catholic I felt drawn to very traditional things like devotions, Latin Mass etc and then I heard some views about this is how things "used to be " and now Catholicism is different... And that almost made me have a crisis of faith and I almost didn't become Catholic, because I thought - the Catholicism that I got to know and love doesn't exist! Later on I figured out that actually all the things I got to love are still very much there and were not abrogated. But the whole experience affected me and now I tend to just stick to traditional things though I accept everything from God that has appeared recently too like devotions or Saints. so in my mind there is no "old Catholicism" and "new Catholicism", I don't believe in having a rupture and for me everything Catholic is just simple Catholicism and all true whether old or formulated recently. I did read of "old" Saints talking about sanctifying each moment and work and that anything can be used for sanctification... I actually think that's a very 'traditional' idea - even if its now more popular today, it was talked about in the older books. so I do believe in fact that we can become Saints anywhere if we do God's Will. However I also believe that there's a reason why religious contemplative life is considered objectively 'higher' though we should only seek God's Will without caring how exalted our mission is... And I think if someone lives in the world it might be harder for them.. I read in the Soul of the Apostolate that their work would still sancify them and they can grow where they are... But they also need an interior life and that can be harder to reach though they can reach it if they try but shouldn't get entangled in thorns - worldly cares etc. I find that work itself and creation in general and people doesn't distract me much if I keep my interior life but I need to work on that. I can try to see God in it like you mentioned though at times I just want to be with Him. But everything worldly does distract me if I willingly participate and I do those things as tainted by sin - all the parties, fashions, consumerism... I can of thepeople there and how God sees them but seeing it all brings a certain grief. Creation isn't bad... Neither is work.. But I don't 'worldliness' as something in the same category, - it is in creation too but it seems to come from the fall. If I go to a worldly place I can only relate my faith to it by contrasting it and thinking instead of God or the people... But the vanity of it is sad. I distinguish that sort of thing from creation... I think its good to see the good in people there or anything that is good, recognising it, but the rest of it just feels so contrary to virtues. Do you have any thoughts? Maybe we are talking about different things... I don't mean how I see people... Or life in the world in general... But very worldly vain or materialistic things especially around me as a young person.. 

​Hi MLF -  I think you hit the nail right on the head: "in fact that we can become Saints anywhere if we do God's Will."  You have said it all!

I think it would be particularly difficult to be a young person in today's world - and far more difficult than it was for me when young and I am now almost 70yrs of age.

There is no "old" or "new" Catholicism.  The Church is a living organism and this means that over time, some things will change and must go on changing with new insights.  Growth is impossible without change, growth is change.  But there are some things that have never changed and never will and very basically, the essence of Catholicism is stated in the Creed.  Our investment as Catholics is in Jesus, who has promised never to abandon His Church "Thou art Peter, The Rock, and on this rock I will build my Church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it".  For me to abandon The Church would be to abandon Jesus, simply because I believe He is fully present in The Blessed Eucharist and in His Church - even though there might be much I cannot understand, am unsure about, or even disagree with in The Church.  The Church functions at once on two levels in a unity as it were, the human institution and functioning, and the supernatural Mystical Body of Christ.

Religious life is theologically and objectively superior.  However, when it comes to the personal, there is a subjective element to consider and nothing can be higher than God's Will for a person.  Indeed, if one considers things on the objective theological level, then God's Will is higher than religious life. Whatever our role or vocation in life or wherever and however God may call one, God provides all the Graces necessary to live that role or vocation to holiness and the heights of sanctity.  Therefore, I don't think it is any more difficult to embrace God's Will while living and working in the world than it is in religious life.  The Lord is the Eternal Faithful One. There will be trials and sufferings, The Cross - as well as Peace and Joys in all and any vocation.  They might at times differ in kind only.  Whatever our call and vocation from God, we can be assured that sufficient Grace will be present to attain great holiness, to attain Unity with God's Will.  It is a matter of responses to Graces present.

There is much in our world that is very sad to put things mildly.  Our task in the world is within those means God has gifted is to be His witnesses/disciples and in being so, strive to draw His world back to Him.  In the times of Jesus when He walked our earth, society and his Jewish religion were in a dreadful state and I tend to think perhaps far worse than we see today in our own society - and yet Jesus chose to live and move within that society.  He did not reject His society in disgust - all that Jesus accomplished, He accomplished within His own society and times as a very ordinary extraordinary human being.  This social and religious 'lay state' of Jesus was a very real, personally chosen, aspect of Jesus' Life just as His regular withdrawing to aloneness in prayer with The Father on the mountain was.

[BarbTherese]

Just realised with a creepy feeling, I just might have moved this thread into a debate mode .  If there are any more posts in my direction, I will be opening a thread in Open Mic to respond.

[MarysLittleFlower]

Just realised with a creepy feeling, I just might have moved this thread into a debate mode .  If there are any more posts in my direction, I will be opening a thread in Open Mic to respond.

Don't worry Barbara I don't think you are debating! if anything it was me. I don't disagree with you at all that we all need to do God's Will for us and that is where our personal holiness is I also agree we need to bring Jesus to the world. I'd say this isn't a new concept at all actually as I found it too in the writings of Saints centuries ago Some though are called to go live a hidden life alone with God, praying for the world, and they have other crosses but also less external distractions. Of course their life is not easy, probably their crosses are very difficult. I don't know what my specific vocation is but I think in any vocation its good to avoid worldly things unless you don't have a choice or go there for your duty, but if we are around people we can witness to them. God bless you!

[MarysLittleFlower]

Thanks for all the replies! I'll respond more soon hopefully when I have more time

[BarbTherese]

Don't worry Barbara I don't think you are debating! if anything it was me. I don't disagree with you at all that we all need to do God's Will for us and that is where our personal holiness is I also agree we need to bring Jesus to the world. I'd say this isn't a new concept at all actually as I found it too in the writings of Saints centuries ago Some though are called to go live a hidden life alone with God, praying for the world, and they have other crosses but also less external distractions. Of course their life is not easy, probably their crosses are very difficult. I don't know what my specific vocation is but I think in any vocation its good to avoid worldly things unless you don't have a choice or go there for your duty, but if we are around people we can witness to them. God bless you!

​May The Lord continue to richly bless you also, MLF - and guide you ever more deeply into your place and role in the scheme of things, your own unique vocation and call as it unfolds for you in the days.

 

[:o)Katherine:o)]

I feel the same way. At times, I feel like my entire life is consumed with my job. It is 24/7. It has been difficult to find the balance. There is a song by Danielle Rose that talks about "I can do small things, small things with great love". This has become my favorite and I play it on repeat often. It is a reminder that I truly can do small things with great love. My work can be my prayer. When I work overtime and am not compensated for it, I am learning to offer it as a prayer. I am also re-arranging my schedule so that I can still attend daily Mass and pray the rosary with the daily Mass crew. I personally think that there comes a point when it is best to take a step back and see how we can incorporate God into our everyday lives. While we may not be able to spend time with Jesus as we would like in the manner we desire such as Eucharistic adoration, we can still spend time with Him in the people that we interact with on a daily basis.

Each day, I ask God to be my hands, feet, thoughts, actions and words. That He will be all that I am and all that I will be. That when people see me or hear me, that they see or hear Him and not me. One of the greatest gifts that we can give others is ourselves. To spend time with the Jesus that is inside all those that we meet such as Beatitude shared (beautiful story!). There is a reason that we are still living in the world, though we may not understand it, in time we will. For now, we can strive to give our all to Him and to share Him with everyone that we meet.

Thank you to everyone for sharing your stories and personal experiences!

[marigold]

I also think there is a certain relief in acknowledging that you can't live the way you want to, at least for now. I've tried to explain this to friends and usually been met with words of caution about not waiting till I'm in the monastery to start living a life of prayer etc. That's not what I mean at all! It's this experience in particular which so few of even the best-intentioned people really understand - that 'the only thing harder than living in accord with your conscience is not living in accord with your conscience' ... and for me, accepting that for now I have to not live in accord with my conscience has been the steepest and best learning curve of the ~2.5 years since leaving my former community.

I especially love to remember this episode from the early life of our best-loved monk of the 20th century, St. Silouan. This is while he still had his worldly name of Semyon and was in the military:

"Once, during a holiday, he went with three soldiers from his battalion to a large tavern in the capital, where there was much gaiety and music. A dinner with vodka was ordered and the group began to talk loudly. Semyon remained mostly silent, and one of his friends asked,

"Semyon, you are so quiet, what are you thinking about?"

"I am thinking: here we are in this tavern, eating, drinking vodka, listening to music and having a good time, and meanwhile on Mt. Athos monks are keeping the vigil and will pray all night. So, who of us will give a better answer on Judgment Day — we or they?"

Then another said, "What a strange character you are, Semyon! We are listening to music and having a good time, and your mind is on Mt. Athos and Judgment Day!"

 

[beatitude]

I love that story, Marigold. Jesus' public ministry began with the wedding at Cana, where he and his disciples were dancing and eating and enjoying themselves - we should remember that having fun is not automatically something bad, and to dance and celebrate is a form of prayer just as fasting is. In our Christian lives we will have both joy and hardship and the test of faith is how to embrace both cheerfully. As Teresa of Avila put it, when she was tucking into a particularly sumptuous dinner, "There is a time for penance and a time for partridges."

I did a double-take when I read that you are not living in accord with your conscience. Unless you have a whole double life that we don't know about, involving money-laundering and cocaine shipments, I think it's safe to say that your conscience is fine even if you aren't living in accord with your deepest inclinations.  

[marigold]

Maybe it's a sloppy use of words... And yes, I do keep trying my best to be right with God - confession and Holy Communion, loving my neighbours (staying away from money-laundering), and basically I think my conscience is ok right now. Maybe 'inclinations' is a more precise word, but the quote about conscience spoke quite deeply to me and that's how it feels a lot of the time.

[MarysLittleFlower]

Maybe it's a sloppy use of words... And yes, I do keep trying my best to be right with God - confession and Holy Communion, loving my neighbours (staying away from money-laundering), and basically I think my conscience is ok right now. Maybe 'inclinations' is a more precise word, but the quote about conscience spoke quite deeply to me and that's how it feels a lot of the time.

I know what you mean... I go through the world every day and see all the things that I used to like but now I don't feel interested in them.. And I know I can just live my own life and I do, but somehow I just want to go somewhere and live aa more simple prayerful life. I try to do that where I am but sometimes I want it to be deeper. And being around all the worldly things just makes me feel it more. I wish I could go to some lonely mountain like St Francis and Mount Alverna and just pray - and then I think, I'll probably not make it a day and go back to my little apartment! Haha. Contemplative life and leaving everything is scary. Not leaving things is painful in another way - I agree it feels like not doing what you feel drawn in your soul to do. How I am hoping to live now, while I'm working and paying my loans - is to concentrate on prayer and try to make my life simpler in terms of possessions,  etc. However when I do this and then go out into the world, I am reminded of the past and there's a contrast and the worldly things just feel so empty... And if I remain there too long or am too involved my concupiscence eventually draws me to those things. But I lose my peace when I become attached to them. I believe for someone who wants to be consecrated, its important not to have attachments and to make Jesus your only treasure in life. I find when I participate too much in worldly things with an enjoyment of them, I get pulled away and my heart becomes divided. I'm not saying its wrong to have fun, but it depends... Jesus went to the wedding but He had such an effect on the couple that they wanted perfect chastity. He did everything out of charity. Also I'm sure it was a virtuous event not a modern party. I read the Holy Family only kept a third of what they had and lived a very simple mortified life.. I find when I participate in things that are more worldly or more than I'm obligated to (if I am), my heart becomes attached to whatever it is - nice food, nicer clothing, amusements... I am not saying its wrong to have fun but I prefer a quiter dinner with good friends over a party. When I went, it was a type of a suffering and I felt its not for me. For recreation I prefer something like crafts etc.. Or a walk through nature... Maybe it depends on personality too. But there are certain things that just don't seem to have a good effct though i can try to think of God there too.

Edited June 21, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower

[MarysLittleFlower]

To clarify I don't mean wild parties etc - I think any serious Christian would not like them. But I find there are things that are worldly amusements that tend to draw the heart away from God more than other types of recreation. In all things even something very neutral like a dinner with friends I think its important to stay united to God and stay in His Presence... When Jesus was in the streets or at the wedding He was united to the Father. So we should stay close to God if we go into the world or are around people - which is not wrong but we need to be careful... But I find there are types of recreation that actually make doing this difficult for me and if I manage to stay closer to God I still have to fight temptations... That probably means I still have far to go spiritually. But I can imagine someone very saintly suffering around worldly things because they see the vanity of them.. I mean stuff that's more of the world not family dinner  like the Saints they did penance for carnivals and dances that looked tame compared to today.. So I think its good to limit entertainments and choose those that don't affect you as much.

Edited June 21, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower

[vee]

Maryslittleflower, I understand what youre getting at.  You really should visit a Carmel (because youve expressed that interest) as soon as possible.  At least correspond with one if you arent already as they will understand your heart's desires and may be able to offer some advice to help you.  It is difficult to live with one foot on Earth and the other in heaven but such is our life here.  As  St Therese says " the world's thy ship and not thy home."

[Yaatee]

There is not necessarily any relief in the cloister, either.  The silence and closeness to people you may know for the rest of your life may be very distracting. As someone recently wrote here, quoting a Carmelite nun,  "The way a sister holds a soup spoon can drive you crazy!".

Remember St. Therese of the Child Jesus wrote that when she was in the chapel at mental prayer, a nun used to come in behind her, and sit there rattling her rosary and making little clicking sounds with her mouth.  Maximum distraction.  St. Therese said nothing, but somehow including the noises in her meditation, smiling at God.

The secret is somehow to incorporate meditation and awareness into your everyday life, not letting distractions, well, distract you,

Very difficult.

[MarysLittleFlower]

Maryslittleflower, I understand what youre getting at.  You really should visit a Carmel (because youve expressed that interest) as soon as possible.  At least correspond with one if you arent already as they will understand your heart's desires and may be able to offer some advice to help you.  It is difficult to live with one foot on Earth and the other in heaven but such is our life here.  As  St Therese says " the world's thy ship and not thy home."

That's true and a very good quote I think it might really help to visit Carmel to see what its like and discern..

[MarysLittleFlower]

There is not necessarily any relief in the cloister, either.  The silence and closeness to people you may know for the rest of your life may be very distracting. As someone recently wrote here, quoting a Carmelite nun,  "The way a sister holds a soup spoon can drive you crazy!".

Remember St. Therese of the Child Jesus wrote that when she was in the chapel at mental prayer, a nun used to come in behind her, and sit there rattling her rosary and making little clicking sounds with her mouth.  Maximum distraction.  St. Therese said nothing, but somehow including the noises in her meditation, smiling at God.

The secret is somehow to incorporate meditation and awareness into your everyday life, not letting distractions, well, distract you,

Very difficult.

That's true I agree with that but it made me realize what my difficulty is... Its not necessarily the everyday distractions (cooking, insects buzzing around, kids yelling outside etc) - all that is indeed part of life and I recall Our Lord telling one of the mystics that you still get the same grace when you fight distractions as if they weren't there. I think my difficulty is more with things of the world that seem to make one attached and take the heart further from God... Either through forming attachments or because the activities just have a certain vanity about them that makes you feel worldly. Of course the problem here is concupiscence and some of these things come from our human condition but that is different than everyday distractions that were mentioned. . I just figured that out.