Being Baptised As Babies?

[[jas]]

I don't recall having said anything about dedication.

(You're right, it's not biblical. That doesn't make it wrong, however, it just means that it's not something you *have* to do)

And does not being baptised mean you're going to hell?

Does being baptised save us?

Baptism is a symbol, an external "demonstration" (for lack of a better word, I'm tired) of what God has already done in our hearts.

Has a baby made the decision to accept Christ? I doubt it. So how can his or her baptism mean anything?

[Jake Huether]

,Sep 4 2003, 07:54 AM] I don't recall having said anything about dedication.

(You're right, it's not biblical. That doesn't make it wrong, however, it just means that it's not something you *have* to do)

And does not being baptised mean you're going to hell?

Does being baptised save us?

Baptism is a symbol, an external "demonstration" (for lack of a better word, I'm tired) of what God has already done in our hearts.

Has a baby made the decision to accept Christ? I doubt it. So how can his or her baptism mean anything?

And does not being baptised mean you're going to hell?

Does being baptised save us?

Yup.

"Mark 16:16

Whoever believes and is baptised will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."

"37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, Brothers, what shall we do?

38 Peter replied, Repent and be baptised, every one of you,..."

A Baby need not repent, becasue it has nothing to repent of. And it need not "believe" becasue it cannot "believe". The latter still holds true though!

Actually, nowhere in the Bible is it ever stated that baptism is in anyway connected to "belief" or "repentance". It is Salvation that requres all three. But if two of the "requirements" cannot be met due to no fault of one's own, then it doesn't mean that person is damned.

There is NO requirement for baptism to be acompannied by repentance or belief. You can not find a place in the Bible, or in any Christian document before 1500, that states that in ORDER for baptism to ocurr one must have faith. No! It only states that for SALVATION to ocur one must beleive, repent, and be baptised!

It's like saying that in order for pasta to be "good" you have to have salt and pepper. But it never says in order to put salt on your pasta you HAVE to have pepper too! If I'm on a desert island and all I have is pasta and salt, that will be perfectly fine!

[cmotherofpirl]

Baptism is a symbol and an action. It washes away the stain of original sin.

It is the entrance into the kingdom of heaven. Jesus says unless you are born of the WATER and the Spirit.

My children were baptised soon after birth. THis means they have entrance into heaven, and grace to get thru their lives. At baptism I vowed to bring up my children with Jesus in their lives.

This means they are members of the body of Christ.

This is what christianity has taught for 2000 years.

My children were confirmed which means the Bishop ( a sucessor of Jesus) called down the Holy Spirit on their souls to further strengthen them.

My children have confessed their sins and recieved Jesus Christ in the Eucharist.

As a parent I don't ask a baby what is good for it. I am responsible for those decisions until the child is capable to make those decisions themselves.

I choose Jesus Christ and his Church for my children.

[Dave]

[jas]:

I dealt with this earlier in the thread. Let me repeat some of what I said . . .

The act of baptism in and of itself won't make you have a relationship with God. You have to accept the graces that God gives you through your baptism.

Anyway, let's start off by looking at Acts 2:38, where Peter tells the crowd to "repent, and let every one of you be baptized." Many think we must first repent and believe before being baptized, but that's not what it means.

To begin, let's briefly recall that the original Greek for the cited passage is "metanoesate kai baptistheto hekastos hymon". Here, an aorist active imperative (second person plural) verb states a condition (protasis) upon which the fulfillment (apodosis) of another verb in the aorist imperative (third person singular) depends, and hence the mood and person establishes the force of that second verb as "each one of you must be baptized." Furthermore, Peter establishes the partitive genitive pronoun, "hekastos hymon", as the subject of baptism, with "you" being in the plural.

What does this mean in plain English? Peter addresses the entire audience (2nd person plural imperative) with the message that, if YOU repent, then EACH ONE who is a part of you and yours (partitive genitive plural) must EACH be baptized (3rd person singular imperative). inDouche, he goes on immediately to confirm quite explicitly that the "promise is to you and to your children, and to those who are far off" (Acts 2:39).

That was a huge crowd, a "multitude" from the entire known world (Acts 2:6), that Peter addressed on the Pentecost; surely there people with small children and even infants in the crowd! If a parent with a small child heard and repented, then by the force of the Biblical text, both he and his small child would have been baptized ( "each one of you" ) that very day.

What's more, Peter deliberately tells the crowd that the promise of baptism and the Holy Spirit is not only for them and their children, but "also for those that are far off". What does this mean? Recall that the audience was comprised of devout Jews from around the Hellenistic world. Peter is telling them that not only are they and their children to be baptized, but also the members of their households ( "each one of you" ) that have remained at home, be it however far away.

Hence, Peter's call to baptism in Acts 2:38-39 is entirely consistent with the Biblical norm that when a head of a household converted, that person then had his or her children and entire household baptized into the faith.

Consider the case of Lydia and her household:

In Acts 16:14-15, we learn that a woman named Lydia heard the Gospel while she was by the riverside near Philippi, and the Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul. The Bible goes on to say, without any further explanation, that Lydia and her household were baptized, and then Lydia begged that Paul and his companions stay with her. According to the Bible alone, and not any theological interpolations, Lydia believed, and thus she and her household were baptized. The Bible says nothing about whether or not the members of the household believed, or even heard the Gospel, prior to their baptism. All that we read is that the head of a household made a decision for Christ, and that as a result of that decision, she and her household were baptized. To say otherwise is to add to the Bible.

By the Bible alone, then, Lydia believed before she was baptized, while the rest of her household was simply baptized. It is important to note that sometimes the Bible makes it clear that Paul preached the Gospel to an inquirer AND his household before baptizing them (e.g., the Philippian Jailer, Acts 16:32-33). But in the case of Lydia, the Bible is states positively only that Paul converted Lydia and then baptized Lydia and her household.

Such is really not all that strange, however, for the Biblical (not to mention sociological) norm of the day was that the head of a household, the paterfamilias, made the decision regarding the beliefs and faith of those who dwelt under his (or her) roof. As Joshua proclaimed, "As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord" (Joshua 24:15).

Now consider Christian baptism while Christ still walked the earth:

Even at the very beginning of Jesus' public ministry, the disciples of Christ began performing Christian baptisms under the supervision of Jesus (Jn. 3:22, 4:1-2). Nonetheless, the Bible makes it abundantly clear that the early disciples were baptized without making a specific confession of faith, either in Jesus as the Christ, or in the atoning death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

How could the people being baptized at the beginning of Jesus' ministry have believed, in their hearts, that Jesus was the Christ, when even Peter and hence the rest of the Twelve Apostles had not yet confessed that Jesus was the Christ (cf. Luke 9:18-20)?

How could the people being baptized have at the beginning of Jesus' ministry possibly believed in the Crucified and Risen Christ when the crucifixion had not yet occurred? Clearly, those early disciples were being properly baptized into the people of God independent of any credal expression of belief in the Jesus as the Crucified and Risen Christ.

Jesus teaches that, "In truth I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and the Spirit" (Jn. 3:5). On the other hand, Jesus also declares that small children can belong to the kingdom of God, and specifically commands that we not place any barriers in their way. When people tried to bring infants to Jesus, the disciples tried to stop them; Jesus, however, rebuked the disciples, saying: "Let the little children come to me, and do not stop them; for it is to such as these that the kingdom of God belongs. In truth I tell you, anyone who does not welcome the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it" (Lk. 18:15-17).

As with Lydia and her household, the apostles baptized entire households on several occasions (Acts 10:48, 16:15, 16:32-33, 18:8; 1 Cor. 1:16). Now, please note that God is not a Lord of confusion: if infant baptism were forbidden, then these passages would carefully note either that the children in these households were excluded from baptism, or that there were no children in any of these households. Moreover, we know that Paul, in his letters, sometimes addresses children as those who are numbered among the "saints" of the churches to which he is writing (e.g., Col. 3:20; cf. Col. 1:1 Eph. 6:1, cf. Eph. 1:1).

Also, remember that under the Old Covenant, if an adult (male) converts to Judaism, he is circumcised as an adult. But if he is born a Jew, then he is circumcised as an infant. Now, let us not forget that the Apostles themselves made it clear that Baptism functions as a sign of the New Covenant, just as circumcision had of the Old Covenant. inDouche, Paul pointedly reminds the Colossians that baptism has, for the New People of God, replaced the old sign of circumcision (Col. 2:11-12). Does Paul specifically exclude infant baptism in this discussion? No. inDouche, his analogy to the practice of circumcision implicitly establishes infant baptism as a norm for a mature Church in which believers themselves have children. And another thing--Paul raises the passage of the Red Sea as an archetype for baptism: "I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea, and all of them were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea" (1 Cor. 10:1-2). This typological baptism, of course, pertained to all of the Israelites - men, women, children, and infants - who followed Moses out of bondage.

And consider these passages as well:

"It was for no reason except his own faithful love that he saved us, by means of the cleansing water of rebirth and renewal in the Holy Spirit" (Tit. 3:5)

"Baptism, which corresponds to , now SAVES you (emphasis mine), not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet. 3:21).

"Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life" (Romans 6:3-4).

"For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ" (Gal. 3:27).

"And you were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead. And you, who were dead in trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, having canceled the bond which stood against us with its legal demands; this he set aside, nailing it to the cross" (Col. 2:12-14).

So, yes, being baptized helps save us. I say "helps" because as I said earlier, you have to cooperate with the baptismal graces that God offers you. However, if you were to die immediately after being baptized, you'd be saved.

If a person wasn't baptized but was invincibly ignorant as to its necessity, then there's still a chance they might go to heaven by means of baptism of desire.

[Joolye]

What about people who are baptised as infants and grow up to reject God?

What about people who baptise their kids just for the sake of getting it done, and do not bring them up in the faith?

It sounds like you replaced baptism with "dedication", and replaced confirmation with baptism.

It would seem that way. It seems like infant baptism equates to our infant dedications, and your confirmation thing equates to our believer's baptism.

[Dave]

What about people who are baptised as infants and grow up to reject God?

What about people who baptise their kids just for the sake of getting it done, and do not bring them up in the faith?

Just because you're baptized, whether as an infant or an adult, doesn't mean you can't reject God later on. Through baptism we receive many graces, but we have to cooperate with those graces throughout our lives.

As for those who baptize their kids and then don't bring them up in the faith, the parents are doing the kids a HUGE disservice, to say the least. Besides, no priest is supposed to baptize any child unless they have reason to believe the child will be raised in the faith.

[Joolye]

As for those who baptize their kids and then don't bring them up in the faith, the parents are doing the kids a HUGE disservice, to say the least.  Besides, no priest is supposed to baptize any child unless they have reason to believe the child will be raised in the faith.

I agree with you.

The minister at the Uniting Church I go to will not baptise infants if the parents are not serious about bringing them up in the faith.

[jasJis]

Joolye,

You are spot on with your points.

Catholics do not believe in "Once Saved Always Saved". The only thing that can seperate us from Salvific Grace is what we call Mortal Sin, wich is acting with full control of our own free will to intentionally reject God.

People who were Baptized as infants were given sufficient Grace from God Himself to come to know Him and make a choice in thier life. Baptism did not destroy their ability to exercise their Free Will.

People who Baptize their children with poor understanding and do not help foster the seed of Faith that was gifted to their child have to answer to God for their failure. God, who is the Perfect Judge with Perfect Wisdom, will take that into account when judging the Child. We can only guess with human Judgement, but we can trust God's Perfect Mercy and Justice.

In a way, the way Roman Catholics order Baptism and Confirmation, it is a little like the way you do dedication and believer's baptism. But they are significantly different. Sacraments are occaisions that God has established to give us Graces such as the Seed of Faith, His Seal as His Children, the gift of the Holy Spirit, etc. It ties in with Jesus' promise, Ask and It Will Be Given. We have these Gifts and it's up to us to perfect the free gift of Faith with Works as Scripture tells us.

[Joolye]

Ahh...the 'Once saved, always saved' debate. It's been a while since I thought about that one. I think I decided against 'once saved, always saved'.

Doh! How annoying is it to know the Bible well enough to know what book of the Bible something is in, but not the chapter and verse location???!!!

Oh, here we go:

"If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgement and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God." Heb 10:26-27

Wow.

So, what if someone deliberately sins after coming to a relationship with Christ, but then they repent and ask for forgiveness? (I'm after both Catholic and Protestant opinions here).

[jasJis]

So, what if someone deliberately sins after coming to a relationship with Christ, but then they repent and ask for forgiveness? (I'm after both Catholic and Protestant opinions here).

If Jesus tells us to forgive our brother not 7 times, but 7 time 70, doesn't that mean we can?

If we can forgive our brother 490 times, how many times do you think God will be willing to forgive us?

We always can be forgiven. All we have to do is repent and ask for forgiveness. That is the Gift that Jesus' pain and death bought us.

[Joolye]

Thanks, good reply. I should have thought of that.

[Robyn]

It sounds like you replaced baptism with "dedication", and replaced confirmation with baptism.

I guess you could say that...but they're your words, not mine. Which supports what I've said previously:

Have you ever tried to explain this to a baby?

A mentally disabled person?

(I have but I've been picky about their mental capacity)

I'm confused. Are you saying that a mentally disabled person cannot be baptised because they don't understand? I guess you don't believe baptism is necessary then? So why do it?

ok...I also believe you don't NEED to be baptised to get to heaven - like the pasta with or without salt & pepper! LOVE those visual egs! :D

So in "proddy" terms. DEDICATION is dedicating the person (baby/mentally disabled/etc) to God. They can't understand, but they have been dedicated, and that's more important.... very similar to the Catholic baptism.

THEN if they are capable of understanding later...they can choose to be baptised (here I'm talking abt the method in which Jesus was baptised).

[Robyn]

If Jesus tells us to forgive our brother not 7 times, but 7 time 70, doesn't that mean we can?

If we can forgive our brother 490 times, how many times do you think God will be willing to forgive us?

We always can be forgiven.  All we have to do is repent and ask for forgiveness.  That is the Gift that Jesus' pain and death bought us.

Forgiveness is a LIFESTYLE and an ATITUTUDE.

Yeah, sometimes it's REAAAAAALLY hard to forgive 70 x 7...I KNOW! I've questioned God and said "I HAVE forgiven, but why do I still FEEL I haven't, when I know I HAVE"

and I've leant that it's far easier to give it up to God - he knows your heart and if you are WILLING TO FORGIVE, and TRY, then if you only make 490...he knows you're trying, and HE'LL HELP YOU continue to forgive.

Like a child who tries to learn to tie thier shoelaces: if they TRY and still dont' quite get it, they'll get help until they CAN do it alone.

Sometimes it's impossible to forgive withouth God's help.

[Norseman82]

Baptism is only one of the three sacraments of initiation. The other two are Confirmation and the Holy Eucharist (aka Holy Communion).

For adult converts, they normally, after a period of instruction, receive all three on Hly Saturday at the Easter Vigil mass, similar to how it was done in the early church.

For those baptized as infants, Eucharist and Confirmation occur after reaching the age of reason and instruction is given.

Confirmation has traditionally been thought of as when a catholic takes responsibility for their own faith. I guess that you may say that this is their chance to "opt out", so to speak.

[Robyn]

I don't beliefe the 3 sacriments of initiation are necessary or relevant in MY faith.

maybe it was the age of reason I was thinking abt earlier....but doesn't that SUGGEST that mentally disabled people and babies can't understand what they're doing?

Edited September 7, 2003 by Robyn