Charleston Shooting Suspect (Derailed: Confederate Flag Debate)

[Didacus]

[Era Might]

Your point? The civil war happened because the south was going to leave the Union.  It did not happen over slavery and the proof of this is in Lincolns own words since he stated he would keep slavery if it meant keeping the Union.  This shows that slavery wasn't even a primary reason for the Civil War or its continuation once it happened. 

Have you ever read the Lincoln-Douglas debates? The Civil War was in development long before it started, and slavery was the great contradiction in American society (which is what the debates were about). The racial side of slavery was one aspect of it, but slavery was bound up in a whole lot more...the nature of America's founding principles, as well as more immediate issues like the geopolitics of the spread of slavery to new states/territories. WWI began over the assassination of an Archduke, but that hardly explains the war.

Edited June 29, 2015 by Era Might

[Era Might]

Just to add, if Lincoln would have kept slavery if it meant saving the Union only shows how central slavery was...it was beyond a "deal" to save the Union, it was a demon that either had to be exorcised or take over completely (recall Lincoln's famous quote of Jesus, about a house being divided against not able to stand, which was originally said in the context of Satan casting out Satan).

[Ice_nine]

I didn't vote it down because you talked about racism. I voted it down because you didn't seem to care at all what anyone else bothered to spend their time stating.

I don't really consider myself invested in this thread. There's like three gay threads and two other threads about racism. Times are busy. Sorry it seems dismissive but attentional resources are limited. I came in here to speak my peace not to debate really.

But in any case it's been a consistent pattern even when I'm not being flippant.

[Socrates]

Some people are offended and greatly pained by the American flag, or so they claim.

Should we ban Old Glory too?  And what if some nutjob waved around the stars and stripes before committing some heinous murder?  

Do we need to ban or purge from public view anything that anybody finds "offensive" or that certain groups have misused for vile purposes?

 

I'd personally be curious to know how many liberals screaming for the Confederate flag to be banned from public also oppose legislation that would protect the American flag from burning or other desecration.

The Confederate flag offends some people, so it needs to be removed from public view, but pee on a crucifix, and it's "art" and "free speech" that must be funded with public tax dollars.

The left seems very particular about what "offensive" expression must be allowed and celebrated as "free speech," and what should be done away with.

 

[Didacus]

Would a Canadian make the news if they burned a Confederate flag on Parlement Hill in Ottawa?

Or would it be free speech and stuff?

These times are so confusing...

[PhuturePriest]

Actually, with slightly more research I am finding that the Kyokujitsu-ki is still used by the Maritime Self-Defense Force. And the Ground defense force uses a modified version. So yeah, that is not a good comparison. 

It's a pretty amesome flag, so I fully understand why they would still use it.

It's also a very popular design for hachimakis on karate supply websites, as far as I've seen, so martial artists certainly find no controversy in it, anyway.

[Amppax]

Also the good ol' Abe Lincoln didn't really care about abolishing slavery.  He cared about preserving the Union. His own words are proof of this:

"If there be those who would not save the Union unless they could at the same time destroy slavery, I do not agree with them. My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave, I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves, I would do it; and if I could do it by freeing some and leaving others alone, I would also do that."--Honest Abe

Eh. http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/06/what-this-cruel-war-was-over/396482/

[Ice_nine]

Eh. http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/06/what-this-cruel-war-was-over/396482/

That article is just cherry picking a bunch of confederates who said blatantly racist things and believed in black slavery like they believed in the gospel. It's not including all those people who fought for primarily for states rights and who, actually, were against slavery and racism.

[Nihil Obstat]

It's a pretty amesome flag, so I fully understand why they would still use it.

It's also a very popular design for hachimakis on karate supply websites, as far as I've seen, so martial artists certainly find no controversy in it, anyway.

Back in the day when I was an orange belt, the logo on the belt was the Kyokujitsu-ki. Cannot remember the brand name now though.

[Guest]

By Abby Phillip June 29 at 4:42 PM  

 

 

The self-proclaimed largest Ku Klux Klan group in America plans to rally outside of the South Carolina statehouse next month, state officials confirmed.

 

The Loyal White Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, a group that according to its Web site is based in Pelham, N.C., requested permission to rally on the statehouse grounds on July 18 from 3 to 5 p.m., according to Brian Gaines, a spokesman for the state’s Budget and Control Board.

 

The request was made on June 23, Gaines said, just one day after South Carolina Gov. Nikki Haley (R) announced that she would call on state lawmakers to take up the issue of removing the flag after a racially motivated attack on a black church that left nine people dead. The Klan group said they expect about 200 people to attend.

 

The group’s Web site prominently displays several versions of the Confederate flag and calls on followers to oppose an attempt at “cultural genocide.”

 

“If you can’t tell they are trying to wipe us out of the history book,” it says. The group has not responded to a request for comment.

 

According to the Web site, the Loyal White Knights seek to unite “white Christian Americans” against Jewish people and mixing with “darker races.”

 

The South Carolina legislature is set to reconvene on July 6, when they are expected to take up legislation that will remove the Confederate flag from its place directly in front of the statehouse building, near a monument to the Confederacy.

 

Over the weekend, however, an activist,Bree Newsome, climbed the 30-foot flag pole and cut the flag down. She was arrested, and the flag was replaced shortly thereafter. Hours later, dozens also held a pro-flag rally outside of the statehouse.

 

A rally hosted by an anti-Semitic, white supremacist group is probably not the kind of support flag proponents are looking for. If anything, it will only make it more difficult for lawmakers to support keeping it flying.

 

According to ABC News 4, Haley greeted news of the rally coldly: “This is our state, and they are not welcome,” she said.

 

 

 

Edited June 30, 2015 by Guest

[KnightofChrist]

Well floopy flop the KKK to the fires of hell eternal. They claim the American flag is their flag too, and they have used it just as much.

Anyway as I stated earlier the Flag is being used as a distraction to the real threats to Black American. Since June the 18th an estimated 22,512 African-American babies have died due to Black Genocide in America. The same Media that is up in arms against the Confederate Flag, the same Federal Government that is banning the Confederate Flag has no problem, is completely silent and quite frankly does not give a d##n when it comes to those tens of thousands of children. They are in full support of that actually. The flag is a distraction, a distraction away from many things but also to Liberal policies have butchered far more than the devil that killed those innocent souls as they prayed in SC.

Edited June 30, 2015 by KnightofChrist

[Papist]

 

 To be honest, Knight you raise some good points, probably some of the best arguments I've ever seen in favor of the flag in question. I've been giving your points some though…hear is how I would like to answer them: 

 

I think that when the flag was commandeered by the blatantly racist groups in the 1960s and before, it wasn't all that much of a stretch for them to do so. Why did they see fit to use the flag for their symbol? Because unfortunately the Confederacy was formed, albeit in a roundabout kind of way, to safeguard the economic boon of slavery itself. Sure, the rights of states to function without federal interference was the immediate and direct cause--- but ultimately slavery was the indirect cause behind that. And so, knowing this, the indirect cause of secession, the KKK saw fit to utilize this flag associated with the Confederacy (the flag of the Confederate armies) as their symbol. It seems that it was rather logical for them to do so actually.

 

 Now let's talk about the Cross… the symbol of Christians was never seen or understood as as having anything to do with after the Crusades which it (the cross) basically predates by 1000 years. When the crusaders commandeered it as their standard under which they went overboard it was more of a stretch for them to use it in this way than it was for the KKK to use the so-called Confederate flag as their symbol. Because Christianity never had anything to do with to dehumanizing anybody as a platform, even in a roundabout way.

 

 

The majority of Muslims don't seem to view the cross as a symbol of hatred. If they did, they wouldn't protect churches in Egypt from destruction, as some of them have done. Or, a better example would be something that happened a few years ago at Catholic University… a lawyer was trying to instigate a feud by claiming that crosses offended Muslim students and for that reason should be taken down. Many Muslim students at the University stated that they actually didn't find offense in the public display of crosses. At worst, it seems that  Muslims associate the cross more as a symbol of suffering and death and they think it strange for Christians to use… if I'm not mistaken, they believe that at the end of time, that  their prophet(s) will destroy all crosses. Anyway, the cross and analogy with the flag doesn't seem to hold up to me. 

The swastika might be a more difficult issue. It originates in Hinduism. Hitler took it and rotated and/or flipped it. The Hindu symbol as I've seen it doesn't resemble the one on Nazi the flag as such… but it does bear a close resemblance all the same. It would be wrong for a Hindu to wear a prominent swastika and attend a bar mitzvah. I think that most Hindus would definitely show a kind of consideration that would prevent them from doing such a thing. At the same time, most Jews would more than likely know that the Hindu wearing a swastika has no intention of equating it to Nazism.

To be honest, I don't think all nostalgic Southerners should necessarily destroy all of their flags. Like I said before, some calls to remove the flag of our ridiculous---removing them from video games and Dukes of Hazzard memorabilia (I had a lunch box and thermos when I was a kid) is just plain dumb.

----

Let's try something… Since you brought up the Democratic party, check out this hypothetical scenario:

 

Suppose that blue states wanted to secede and form a nation under which abortion was a tenant because they depended on money from abortion clinics. Suppose they had a certain flag with a donkey associated with the armies of their new nation. Suppose there was a civil war because these states exercised their right to secede and form a new government. Let's say they lost and abortion was prohibited throughout the land. I would object to public displays of that donkey flag.

 

 

 I should say that while I am admittedly a Yankee (whatever that means… wait, actually I live in Maryland--am I a Yankee?), I have a great appreciation for people and things from the South: I like Paula Deen, peaches, nice weather, fried green tomatoes, okra, and the lovely Daisy Duke (from the original TV show not the trashy movie).

 

Response to your hypothetical scenario.

I do not believe someone's rights should be rescinded b/c one is offended.  There are a lot of things out there to cause offense... if we let it. People choose to be offended....as I am sure this post will offend someone.

[dominicansoul]

These jerks totally hijacked the Order of Penitent's garb and made it a sign of racist hatred, stupid dumbass honkies...!!!

 

But that doesn't stop the Penitents from using it!  Go Spain!

 

[KnightofChrist]

Oh yeah I had totally forgotten that, thank you DS.