Charleston Shooting Suspect (Derailed: Confederate Flag Debate)

[Nihil Obstat]

[Ice_nine]

it has keys over it that doesn't count

But my point still stands that they have become symbols for very unseemly things within this culture have they not?

[KnightofChrist]

The flag has become a symbol for racism. The precise history doesn't exactly matter. The swastika, pentagram, and upside down cross used to be Christian symbols so should I walk into Mass wearing all three? Probably a bad idea. It's a friggin flag if it causes pain to a massive amount of people can't you live without it? Come on now . . .

in other words facts do not matter, the views and feelings of those that do not share your opinion do not matter. All that matters is how you feel and how those that agree with you feel. As I stated earlier and a point you fail to address, in many countries the Cross is seen as a symbol of hatred and it causes a massive amount of pain. Should it to be banned in places like that? 

[Ice_nine]

The Cross is much more important and sacred than any flag so, no.

I haven't read any of your posts Knight (why I "failed to address" your points). I don't think it matters. I know that the confederate flag may represent a bunch of great things but that it's a symbol of racism and white supremacy is also undeniable. If it stands for anything noble, it's been hijacked.

Again it's a freaking flag. I know it's used to taunt black people and make them constantly aware of where they stand in society. Although I know Soc thinks that we are post-racial and that all we have now are race-bating pc bleeding heart liberals. I don't know where you stand Knight. I don't know if or why you feel particularly strong about keeping the flag, but I won't shed a single tear if and when it comes down. They can burn em for all I care.

[Nihil Obstat]

it has keys over it that doesn't count

But my point still stands that they have become symbols for very unseemly things within this culture have they not?

 

Personally I have never seen an inverted crucifix being used as a symbol outside of black metal bands - and let us be honest, they just look like a bunch of moody teenagers who found their mom's make-up cupboards. Who takes that garbage seriously?

[KnightofChrist]

The Cross is much more important and sacred than any flag so, no.

To Christians yes, but to many the Cross is a symbol of hatred and persecution. You are simply not being logically consistent. The Cross is seen by many just as much as a symbol of hatred as the Confederate Flag, if not greater.

I haven't read any of your posts Knight (why I "failed to address" your points). I don't think it matters. I know that the confederate flag may represent a bunch of great things but that it's a symbol of racism and white supremacy is also undeniable. If it stands for anything noble, it's been hijacked.

Again it's a freaking flag. I know it's used to taunt black people and make them constantly aware of where they stand in society. Although I know Soc thinks that we are post-racial and that all we have now are race-bating pc bleeding heart liberals. I don't know where you stand Knight. I don't know if or why you feel particularly strong about keeping the flag, but I won't shed a single tear if and when it comes down. They can burn em for all I care.

Well I respect you, but for a great many, the vast majority of Southerns the flying of the Confederate battle flag is not a symbol of hatred, it is not a taut to black people, nor is it representative of any the stereotypical cartoonish views non-southerns have of Southerns. The best we can do is try and explain that for us it is not a symbol of hatred for us, but of honor. If like you they are absolutely unwilling to see any point of view than their own then so be it. But we will not accept that it is a symbol of hatred, because it is our flag and we say that it is not a symbol of hatred and we will not stop flying our flag, "and we say grace and we say ma'am and if you ain't in to that we don't give a d##n."

Hopefully in time the crazy attempt to purge the flag from history will cease. It is very dangerous, in a supposedly free society, that the Federal government has asked private companies to stop selling the Confederate flag, that is a fascist form of censorship, Gone with the Wind is being banned too, Duke's of Hazard as well, even Civil War video games are being stripped off of the Apple store, there are even calls to dig up the grave sites of Confederate solders. I'm sure none of those things will matter to those that agree with the purging, but when the mob directs it's fascist censorship views to other symbols we shouldn't be surprised if it will be the Cross.

[Guest]

I for sure don't trust the government anymore.

[Ice_nine]

Personally I have never seen an inverted crucifix being used as a symbol outside of black metal bands - and let us be honest, they just look like a bunch of moody teenagers who found their mom's make-up cupboards. Who takes that garbage seriously?

I personally take people seriously when they vocally glorify demons and stuff even if they don't really believe in that "fairy tale" and are doing it for shock value. I don't screw around with that stuff.

[Ice_nine]

To Christians yes, but to many the Cross is a symbol of hatred and persecution. You are simply not being logically consistent. The Cross is seen by many just as much as a symbol of hatred as the Confederate Flag, if not greater.

Well I respect you, but for a great many, the vast majority of Southerns the flying of the Confederate battle flag is not a symbol of hatred, it is not a taut to black people, nor is it representative of any the stereotypical cartoonish views non-southerns have of Southerns. The best we can do is try and explain that for us it is not a symbol of hatred for us, but of honor. If like you they are absolutely unwilling to see any point of view than their own then so be it. But we will not accept that it is a symbol of hatred, because it is our flag and we say that it is not a symbol of hatred and we will not stop flying our flag, "and we say grace and we say ma'am and if you ain't in to that we don't give a d##n."

Hopefully in time the crazy attempt to purge the flag from history will cease. It is very dangerous, in a supposedly free society, that the Federal government has asked private companies to stop selling the Confederate flag, that is a fascist form of censorship, Gone with the Wind is being banned too, Duke's of Hazard as well, even Civil War video games are being stripped off of the Apple store, there are even calls to dig up the grave sites of Confederate solders. I'm sure none of those things will matter to those that agree with the purging, but when the mob directs it's fascist censorship views to other symbols we shouldn't be surprised if it will be the Cross.

There's a difference between flying the flag over a public building and flying one over your own house. If you're cool with a lot of people thinking you're racist, then fine, fly your flag. Maybe you're not racist but people are going to think that you are. You say "the vast majority" of southerners doesn't think it's racist I think the "vast majority of black people" think it's racist. Forget logic here, we're both talking about our perceptions and both talking out of our ass. This is all about feelings really.

I've also done a lot of studying on institutionalized racism and I'm pretty closed-minded on the subject. It exists. Microaggression is a real and damaging phenomenon. Social engineering is real and damaging phenomenon. These beliefs do inform my feelings toward the confederate flag. I'll admit that. I suspect we are not operating from this same premise?

I'm all for letting the defeated side tell their story, are you? In every case? I'll remember this if and when we have discussions about the terrible crimes the church or the US government have committed against people who they have subsequently silenced

 

In summation the confederate flag should be banned from public buildings not private property just like the swastika should be, but if you choose to fly either for reasons noble or vile don't be upset with the social consequences.

Edited June 28, 2015 by Ice_nine

[Ice_nine]

And also I love getting down-voted every time I talk about racism! It just tickles me.

[Seven77]

 

In many Muslim counties a like minded argument could be made against the Cross. The "carriers of the Cross", seen as warmongers, bigoted hate filled persecutors of the Muslim people 'commandeered' the symbol of the Cross during the Crusades. Because of this the Cross has taken on the symbolism of hatred. When Muslims in these counties see the Cross that's what they think. I'm also a graphic designer, and I also know the power of symbols. But I also know that symbols can have different meanings to different people. The Cross is such an example, but should it be inappropriate to publicly display the Cross in nations where it is seen as a symbol of hatred? No, because even though it may be seen as a symbol of hatred against Muslims, for Christians it is a symbol of peace, salvation, and love. I cannot recall which eastern religion the swastika was stolen but should that religion be able to publicly display their symbol or should they be forbidden because it was stolen by the Nazis? Also, I've seen the comparison of the Confederate Flag and the Nazi flag more than once what I have not seen is for anyone that makes that comparison to also make the logical step further and compare the Democrat Party, the party of Slavery (and even today the party of black-genocide and the abortion holocaust) to the Nazi Party. Does any one think the Nazi Party would still be tolerated today if they had a different flag? It's not as if the Democrat Party has abandon the mindset that some people are non-persons and they are the property of others.

 To be honest, Knight you raise some good points, probably some of the best arguments I've ever seen in favor of the flag in question. I've been giving your points some though…hear is how I would like to answer them: 

I think that when the flag was commandeered by the blatantly racist groups in the 1960s and before, it wasn't all that much of a stretch for them to do so. Why did they see fit to use the flag for their symbol? Because unfortunately the Confederacy was formed, albeit in a roundabout kind of way, to safeguard the economic boon of slavery itself. Sure, the rights of states to function without federal interference was the immediate and direct cause--- but ultimately slavery was the indirect cause behind that. And so, knowing this, the indirect cause of secession, the KKK saw fit to utilize this flag associated with the Confederacy (the flag of the Confederate armies) as their symbol. It seems that it was rather logical for them to do so actually.

 Now let's talk about the Cross… the symbol of Christians was never seen or understood as as having anything to do with after the Crusades which it (the cross) basically predates by 1000 years. When the crusaders commandeered it as their standard under which they went overboard it was more of a stretch for them to use it in this way than it was for the KKK to use the so-called Confederate flag as their symbol. Because Christianity never had anything to do with to dehumanizing anybody as a platform, even in a roundabout way.

 

The majority of Muslims don't seem to view the cross as a symbol of hatred. If they did, they wouldn't protect churches in Egypt from destruction, as some of them have done. Or, a better example would be something that happened a few years ago at Catholic University… a lawyer was trying to instigate a feud by claiming that crosses offended Muslim students and for that reason should be taken down. Many Muslim students at the University stated that they actually didn't find offense in the public display of crosses. At worst, it seems that  Muslims associate the cross more as a symbol of suffering and death and they think it strange for Christians to use… if I'm not mistaken, they believe that at the end of time, that  their prophet(s) will destroy all crosses. Anyway, the cross and analogy with the flag doesn't seem to hold up to me. 

The swastika might be a more difficult issue. It originates in Hinduism. Hitler took it and rotated and/or flipped it. The Hindu symbol as I've seen it doesn't resemble the one on Nazi the flag as such… but it does bear a close resemblance all the same. It would be wrong for a Hindu to wear a prominent swastika and attend a bar mitzvah. I think that most Hindus would definitely show a kind of consideration that would prevent them from doing such a thing. At the same time, most Jews would more than likely know that the Hindu wearing a swastika has no intention of equating it to Nazism.

To be honest, I don't think all nostalgic Southerners should necessarily destroy all of their flags. Like I said before, some calls to remove the flag of our ridiculous---removing them from video games and Dukes of Hazzard memorabilia (I had a lunch box and thermos when I was a kid) is just plain dumb.

----

Let's try something… Since you brought up the Democratic party, check out this hypothetical scenario:

Suppose that blue states wanted to secede and form a nation under which abortion was a tenant because they depended on money from abortion clinics. Suppose they had a certain flag with a donkey associated with the armies of their new nation. Suppose there was a civil war because these states exercised their right to secede and form a new government. Let's say they lost and abortion was prohibited throughout the land. I would object to public displays of that donkey flag.

 I should say that while I am admittedly a Yankee (whatever that means… wait, actually I live in Maryland--am I a Yankee?), I have a great appreciation for people and things from the South: I like Paula Deen, peaches, nice weather, fried green tomatoes, okra, and the lovely Daisy Duke (from the original TV show not the trashy movie).

[KnightofChrist]

And also I love getting down-voted every time I talk about racism! It just tickles me.

I didn't vote it down because you talked about racism. I voted it down because you didn't seem to care at all what anyone else bothered to spend their time stating.

[KnightofChrist]

There's a difference between flying the flag over a public building and flying one over your own house. If you're cool with a lot of people thinking you're racist, then fine, fly your flag. Maybe you're not racist but people are going to think that you are. You say "the vast majority" of southerners doesn't think it's racist I think the "vast majority of black people" think it's racist. Forget logic here, we're both talking about our perceptions and both talking out of our ass. This is all about feelings really.

Nope, I'm not cool with intolerant stereotypical view points but I can't do much about it other than saying no that's not true, it's not racist. I've had white and black friends who've flown the flag or supported the flag. How many people do you personally know that fly the flag? Have you ever attempted to sit down and have a calm rational conversion with them and understand they point of view? Or do you react in the manner you've shown me?

I've also done a lot of studying on institutionalized racism and I'm pretty closed-minded on the subject. It exists. Microaggression is a real and damaging phenomenon. Social engineering is real and damaging phenomenon. These beliefs do inform my feelings toward the confederate flag. I'll admit that. I suspect we are not operating from this same premise?

I do think institutionalized racism exists. I believe Abortion clinics are a prime real life example of that in practice. Because they are typically placed near or in African-American neighbors. In places like New York City, far from the heart of "Dixie" more African-American babies are murdered than are born. I believe the focus on the Confederate flag is nothing more than one of many distractions to keep Black America's focus away from actual threats to the continuation of the race. 

I'm all for letting the defeated side tell their story, are you? In every case? I'll remember this if and when we have discussions about the terrible crimes the church or the US government have committed against people who they have subsequently silenced

You'll have to be more clear as to what you mean. I'm sorry I'm not sure I understand. The victor always writes or rewrites history from their point of view. I don't think the 'defeated side' is always right, with so many different historical events one would have to look at each one on a case by case basis. But again perhaps you could further explain what you mean.

 

In summation the confederate flag should be banned from public buildings not private property just like the swastika should be, but if you choose to fly either for reasons noble or vile don't be upset with the social consequences.

Whether it flies at a state capital is not very much of a concern for me. However to ban it from all public places would be an injustice. What of the Confederate grave sites? What of Civil War reenactments at public parks and things of that nature? Purging it from all public places would be a denial of history and frankly extremely fascist and American. As for private use I don't have a problem with people getting "upset" when others view them with stereotypical views just because they have a Confederate Flag.

[KnightofChrist]

 

 To be honest, Knight you raise some good points, probably some of the best arguments I've ever seen in favor of the flag in question. I've been giving your points some though…hear is how I would like to answer them: 

 

I think that when the flag was commandeered by the blatantly racist groups in the 1960s and before, it wasn't all that much of a stretch for them to do so. Why did they see fit to use the flag for their symbol? Because unfortunately the Confederacy was formed, albeit in a roundabout kind of way, to safeguard the economic boon of slavery itself. Sure, the rights of states to function without federal interference was the immediate and direct cause--- but ultimately slavery was the indirect cause behind that. And so, knowing this, the indirect cause of secession, the KKK saw fit to utilize this flag associated with the Confederacy (the flag of the Confederate armies) as their symbol. It seems that it was rather logical for them to do so actually.

But again, racists before and after the 60's have used the American flag just as much as the Confederate Flag for a symbol of their hatred. If the Confederate flag is racist because racists hijacked the same is true for the American in my mind. Other than Farrakhan I don't see any one else being logically contestant in that regard. 

 Now let's talk about the Cross… the symbol of Christians was never seen or understood as as having anything to do with after the Crusades which it (the cross) basically predates by 1000 years. When the crusaders commandeered it as their standard under which they went overboard it was more of a stretch for them to use it in this way than it was for the KKK to use the so-called Confederate flag as their symbol. Because Christianity never had anything to do with to dehumanizing anybody as a platform, even in a roundabout way.

The majority of Muslims don't seem to view the cross as a symbol of hatred. If they did, they wouldn't protect churches in Egypt from destruction, as some of them have done. Or, a better example would be something that happened a few years ago at Catholic University… a lawyer was trying to instigate a feud by claiming that crosses offended Muslim students and for that reason should be taken down. Many Muslim students at the University stated that they actually didn't find offense in the public display of crosses. At worst, it seems that  Muslims associate the cross more as a symbol of suffering and death and they think it strange for Christians to use… if I'm not mistaken, they believe that at the end of time, that  their prophet(s) will destroy all crosses. Anyway, the cross and analogy with the flag doesn't seem to hold up to me. 

Yes not all Muslims are offend by the Cross, yes some Muslim counties allow the public display of the Cross, but others do not and the Cross even in countries that do allow its display still have many any those counties that find it offensive. Not everyone in America believes the Confederate Flag to be offensive but of course that doesn't matter.  I do recall many news reports, namely before and after the invasion of Iraq on how the Cross was offensive to many Muslims do to the crusaders. I also recall many conversations on Islamic public forums about the symbol of the Cross and how many expressed the view point that it was a symbol of hatred against Muslims because of the violence of the crusaders. For me the analogy holds, bad people hijacked a symbol and it became for some a symbol of hatred. But to others it is not a symbol of hatred.  Context is king.

 

The swastika might be a more difficult issue. It originates in Hinduism. Hitler took it and rotated and/or flipped it. The Hindu symbol as I've seen it doesn't resemble the one on Nazi the flag as such… but it does bear a close resemblance all the same. It would be wrong for a Hindu to wear a prominent swastika and attend a bar mitzvah. I think that most Hindus would definitely show a kind of consideration that would prevent them from doing such a thing. At the same time, most Jews would more than likely know that the Hindu wearing a swastika has no intention of equating it to Nazism.

To be honest, I don't think all nostalgic Southerners should necessarily destroy all of their flags. Like I said before, some calls to remove the flag of our ridiculous---removing them from video games and Dukes of Hazzard memorabilia (I had a lunch box and thermos when I was a kid) is just plain dumb.

Yeah, it is crazy and dumb. This is America or at least it use to be.

----

Let's try something… Since you brought up the Democratic party, check out this hypothetical scenario:

 

Suppose that blue states wanted to secede and form a nation under which abortion was a tenant because they depended on money from abortion clinics. Suppose they had a certain flag with a donkey associated with the armies of their new nation. Suppose there was a civil war because these states exercised their right to secede and form a new government. Let's say they lost and abortion was prohibited throughout the land. I would object to public displays of that donkey flag.

I should say that while I am admittedly a Yankee (whatever that means… wait, actually I live in Maryland--am I a Yankee?), I have a great appreciation for people and things from the South: I like Paula Deen, peaches, nice weather, fried green tomatoes, okra, and the lovely Daisy Duke (from the original TV show not the trashy movie).

Well I asked first and you didn't really give an answer and mine wasn't a what if mine was a what was and what is. It was the Democrat Party that did secede. You and others make the argument that the foundation of that was to perverse Slavery. Why does the Democrat Party get a pass today?  If you can give a pass the the Party, but not a flag how do you come to that conclusion? The Party was the one behind the ideology, so again why does it get a pass? And if you look at the history of the Party after the war they simply evolved their war against Black America. The Party was using the donkey as a logo when it enacted various racist polices after the war. Should the logo even be displayed today?

I can only answer you question with what was, not what if. My ancestors did not fight for racism, they did not fight for slavery. They were poor men who did not own slaves. They fought to defend their families and friends from an invading army and war criminals like Sherman. They fought and died under the Confederate battle flag. No matter what others accuse me of being, I do not find that the flag is racist. It is a symbol of my ancestors blood being shed for their families and loved ones.

Also thanks for mentioning delicious foods now I am hungry! I think I will fry some okra now.

[KnightofChrist]

Also I hate my writing skills. Their terrible sometimes. ugh