Charleston Shooting Suspect (Derailed: Confederate Flag Debate)

[Credo in Deum]

 

Let's start with a couple key things.  The confederates were not traitors.  They were exercising their constitutional right to form a new government since they believed the one they were under was not working for them.  

Secondly by the logic presented in the picture we should also ban the current flag since it's also been used by white supremacists.

But wait there's more!  There is another flag which our amazing government has labeled a sign  of domestic terrorism and it's this one:

Also the good ol' Abe Lincoln didn't really care about abolishing slavery.  He cared about preserving the Union. His own words are proof of this:

"If there be those who would not save the Union unless they could at the same time destroy slavery, I do not agree with them. My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave, I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves, I would do it; and if I could do it by freeing some and leaving others alone, I would also do that."--Honest Abe

Lastly the battle flag represents cessation not racism and it wasn't even the official flag of the confederate nation. In fact the confederate national flag looked like this:

 

Edited June 27, 2015 by Credo in Deum

[KnightofChrist]

[Credo in Deum]

You know, comments like that really irk me to no end. I think it needs to be addressed. The flag issue is directly connected to this hate crime. We need to call it what it simply is. We're not talking about merely an ignorant and stupid man, we're talking about an extremely racist and hateful man-- a man who cannot see the humanity of his own brothers and sisters. One of the standards under which he carried out his hate crime was a Confederate flag. It is directly related to his action. Denouncing the Confederate flag as a racist symbol is integral to denouncing this particular  hate crime.

Racist maybe, but something doesn't really add up.  Why would he go to a bible study to shoot black people when he could have gone on a Sunday?  The question is if he went on a Sunday would he have been able to get as close to State Senator Rev. Clementa Pinckney?  Seems more like an assassination.

Edited June 27, 2015 by Credo in Deum

[NadaTeTurbe]

Let's start with a couple key things.  The confederates were not traitors.  They were exercising their constitutional right to form a new government since they believed the one they were under was not working for them.. 

 

 

"Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition."
 

This is from the Cornerstone Speech. 

[KnightofChrist]

"If I could save the Union without freeing any slave, I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves, I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone, I would also do that. What I do about slavery and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union." - Abraham Lincoln, August 1862, from a letter to the New York Tribune

"You and we are different races. We have between us a broader difference than exists between any other two races. Whether it is right or wrong, I need not discuss; but this physical difference is a great disadvantage to us both, as I think. Your race suffers very greatly, many of them, by living among us, while we suffer from your presence. If this is admitted, it affords a reason, at least, why we should be separated." - Abraham Lincoln, August 1862 in a meeting about sending Black people back to Africa with Black leaders at the White House

[Credo in Deum]

 

 

Your point? The civil war happened because the south was going to leave the Union.  It did not happen over slavery and the proof of this is in Lincolns own words since he stated he would keep slavery if it meant keeping the Union.  This shows that slavery wasn't even a primary reason for the Civil War or its continuation once it happened. 

Edited June 27, 2015 by Credo in Deum

[Seven77]

Here we go again…

Credo, Knight, as I understand it the confederates were indeed traitors in the same way that the revolutionaries were traitors in the eyes of the British. They  (the confederates) wanted to, and did, Form their own government and their own nation--- something that they did have a constitutional right to do. They wanted to preserve their economic way of life (largely built on the backs of slaves) and didn't want the federal government to interfere with their state-level business. The North, wanting to preserve the union--- in other words, wishing the country not to be separated--- more than wanting to abolish slavery, went to war with the  confederates. I think we are on the same page at this point... keep bearing with me. Now, the establishment of the Confederate States had as a platform position  it clear defense of slavery itself.

While associated with the confederates,  the flag in question was not the flag of the Confederate States of America. I believe that the flag in question eventually became a symbol of racism when it was commandeered around the time of the civil rights movement in protest to desegregation. And it was also taken by the KKK as the standard under which they committed their atrocities. Because of this, the flag has taken on this symbolism. When many people see the flag that's what they think. As a graphic designer, I know the power of symbols. I think the situation is much like the way that the swastika became a symbol of Nazism and the way the rainbow became the symbol for "gay rights." And for this reason, I hold that it is inappropriate to publicly display the so-called confederate flag because people will take or mistake it for racism.

Edited June 27, 2015 by Seven77

[NadaTeTurbe]

Your point? The civil war happened because the south was going to leave the Union.  It did not happen over slavery and the proof of this is in Lincolns own words since he stated he would keep slavery if it meant keeping the Union.  This shows that slavery wasn't even a primary reason for the Civil War or its continuation once it happened. 

My point is just that the basis of the Union is the Declaration of Independance who proclaim that "all men are created equal", the basis of the Confederacy is the Cornerstone speech who proclaim "the negro is not equal to the white men".  Understand what you want. 

Also, if you are not able to see the symbol that the confederate flag is now... I see it everywhere where I live, at 7 665 km, and it is not to defends the right to the southerner to destroy their country by separating it in two. 

[Seven77]

Racist maybe, but something doesn't really add up.  Why would he go to a bible study to shoot black people when he could have gone on a Sunday?  The question is if he went on a Sunday would he have been able to get as close to State Senator Rev. Clementa Pinckney?  Seems more like an assassination.

 Does racism ever add up though? Ultimately, racists don't have a method to their madness. I don't even think he knew the senator would be there.

[NadaTeTurbe]

"If I could save the Union without freeing any slave, I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves, I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone, I would also do that. What I do about slavery and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union." - Abraham Lincoln, August 1862, from a letter to the New York Tribune

"You and we are different races. We have between us a broader difference than exists between any other two races. Whether it is right or wrong, I need not discuss; but this physical difference is a great disadvantage to us both, as I think. Your race suffers very greatly, many of them, by living among us, while we suffer from your presence. If this is admitted, it affords a reason, at least, why we should be separated." - Abraham Lincoln, August 1862 in a meeting about sending Black people back to Africa with Black leaders at the White House

"I am naturally anti-slavery. If slavery is not wrong, nothing is wrong. I can not remember when I did not so think, and feel." The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume VII, "Letter to Albert G. Hodges" (April 4, 1864), p. 281.

Abraham Lincoln wanted the votes of white voters, he told them what they wanted to hear. We can't know what he really thought, and we can do a long war quotes with quotes of Lincoln supporting slavery, and racist quotes of Lincoln. 

[NadaTeTurbe]

 

Racist maybe, but something doesn't really add up.  Why would he go to a bible study to shoot black people when he could have gone on a Sunday?  The question is if he went on a Sunday would he have been able to get as close to State Senator Rev. Clementa Pinckney?  Seems more like an assassination.

It looks like he acted in an impulse, instead of something really planned. If he killed Rev. Pinckney on purpose, we can think he will have links to other organization. 

[NadaTeTurbe]

 

"I am naturally anti-slavery. If slavery is not wrong, nothing is wrong. I can not remember when I did not so think, and feel." The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume VII, "Letter to Albert G. Hodges" (April 4, 1864), p. 281.

Abraham Lincoln wanted the votes of white voters, he told them what they wanted to hear. We can't know what he really thought, and we can do a long war quotes with quotes of Lincoln supporting slavery, and racist quotes of Lincoln. 

quotes of Lincoln against slavery, and racist quotes of Lincoln. sorry 

[KnightofChrist]

 

"I am naturally anti-slavery. If slavery is not wrong, nothing is wrong. I can not remember when I did not so think, and feel." The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume VII, "Letter to Albert G. Hodges" (April 4, 1864), p. 281.

Abraham Lincoln wanted the votes of white voters, he told them what they wanted to hear. We can't know what he really thought, and we can do a long war quotes with quotes of Lincoln against slavery, and racist quotes of Lincoln. 

Yes, he wanted to free the slaves and then ship them back to Africa. But he fought to preserve the Union above all else. I don't think he was really the type of man to say what the group wanted to hear. He had no problem when he stated straight to a group of Black leaders that they had to go because amongst other things whites suffer from the presence of blacks.

While associated with the confederates,  the flag in question was not the flag of the Confederate States of America. I believe that the flag in question eventually became a symbol of racism when it was commandeered around the time of the civil rights movement in protest to desegregation. And it was also taken by the KKK as the standard under which they committed their atrocities. Because of this, the flag has taken on this symbolism. When many people see the flag that's what they think. As a graphic designer, I know the power of symbols. I think the situation is much like the way that the swastika became a symbol of Nazism and the way the rainbow became the symbol for "gay rights." And for this reason, I hold that it is inappropriate to publicly display the so-called confederate flag because people will take or mistake it for racism.

In many Muslim counties a like minded argument could be made against the Cross. The "carriers of the Cross", seen as warmongers, bigoted hate filled persecutors of the Muslim people 'commandeered' the symbol of the Cross during the Crusades. Because of this the Cross has taken on the symbolism of hatred. When Muslims in these counties see the Cross that's what they think. I'm also a graphic designer, and I also know the power of symbols. But I also know that symbols can have different meanings to different people. The Cross is such an example, but should it be inappropriate to publicly display the Cross in nations where it is seen as a symbol of hatred? No, because even though it may be seen as a symbol of hatred against Muslims, for Christians it is a symbol of peace, salvation, and love. I cannot recall which eastern religion the swastika was stolen but should that religion be able to publicly display their symbol or should they be forbidden because it was stolen by the Nazis? Also, I've seen the comparison of the Confederate Flag and the Nazi flag more than once what I have not seen is for anyone that makes that comparison to also make the logical step further and compare the Democrat Party, the party of Slavery (and even today the party of black-genocide and the abortion holocaust) to the Nazi Party. Does any one think the Nazi Party would still be tolerated today if they had a different flag? It's not as if the Democrat Party has abandon the mindset that some people are non-persons and they are the property of others.

Edited June 27, 2015 by KnightofChrist

[Anomaly]

Are any of you from the south?   I mean live here, not visit in some internship.  

The flag has a variety of meanings.   Yes, it represents slavery, oppression, and white supremacists for some.   But to the majority, it represents being different and not subsevient to yankee disdain.  Being independent and set sufficient.  Being able to direct your own governmental affairs and not be dictated to by northern interlopers.   

There are many blacks that are defending the confederate flag for those reasons and lament its attempted hijacking to solely represent racist ass hats.  They, like many others,  see the attempted banning an effort by people who don't understand our culture and are instructing us because we are incapable of discerning it for ourselves.  

Try reading editorial columns and bylines of local southern papers.  No, we aren't all ignorant hicks that just don't understand what we do and say.  It's more complex than that, and that is the bigger meaning that is currently associated with the stars and bars with the majority of southern people. 

[Ice_nine]

The flag has become a symbol for racism. The precise history doesn't exactly matter. The swastika, pentagram, and upside down cross used to be Christian symbols so should I walk into Mass wearing all three? Probably a bad idea. It's a friggin flag if it causes pain to a massive amount of people can't you live without it? Come on now . . .