Charleston Shooting Suspect (Derailed: Confederate Flag Debate)

[Socrates]

Far more evil and wicked acts have happened under the American flag, the Confederates for example very legalized the butchering of unborn children that targets mostly black neighborhoods. 

​I think you meant to say "the United States Supreme Court."

Most people don't fly Old Glory to celebrate abortion on demand, Union army atrocities, or the betrayal and massacre of Indians.  (Much as some pc leftist types want to ban the flag from public display in certain places because it "offends" certain people.)

[Spem in alium]

Lord, have mercy. 

[Nihil Obstat]

​I think you meant to say "the United States Supreme Court."

Most people don't fly Old Glory to celebrate abortion on demand, Union army atrocities, or the betrayal and massacre of Indians.  (Much as some pc leftist types want to ban the flag from public display in certain places because it "offends" certain people.)

​I think he meant to type that the Confederates never legalized abortion. Looked like a typo to me.

[Lilllabettt]

​No, they were not.  And I speak as one who had ancestors who fought on both sides, and I am ashamed of neither.  I also have studied the war and this period of history both academically and as an a hobby, and wrote a thesis on Stonewall Jackson.  You're not educating me; you're displaying your ignorance.

Back then, people in the States, at least in the Southern States, sincerely saw their "country" as being their home state, rather than the federal Union, and it was to their state that they owed their patriotic loyalty, which they saw as a sacred thing.  Most Southerners regarded fighting against their home state as traitorous and dishonorable.  The Union was a creation of the various States, rather than the other way around, and Southerners (as well as many Yankees) believed states should be free to secede if they wished.  Both Lee and Jackson (to use these two prominent examples) fought for the Confederacy out of profound loyalty to their home state, rather than to perpetuate slavery, and both tended to side with the Union, until federal troops were sent in to invade South Carolina.  This tipped Virginia and other "border states" into joining the Confederacy, against what was seen as unjust federal aggression.

Also, freeing of the slaves was originally not even a Union objective.  The Emancipation Proclamation occurred late in the war.

The Southern states did not seek to overthrow the federal government, but to secede and be independent from Washington and the federal government (just as the American colonies sought independence from the British Crown, rather than to overthrow the king in England).

Jackson prayed fervently with others for war to be avoided, and before the war, Lee said if he could, he would personally buy the freedom of every slave if it could prevent war.

Comparing the Confederacy to Hitler and the Nazi regime is just ignorant, false, and cheap (politically correct as it may be).

Men in my family tree fought for what they believed in - to protect their home against the brutal invasion by the Yankees - which involved much destruction, pillage, and rapine against civilians.  They were poor farmers who did not own slaves.

​

Oh, spare me. Do you think you are being shocking? Everyone with an 8th grade education knows the cause of the Civil War was one side wanting to preserve the Union and the other wanting to break it up. You seem to think a desire to break up the Union is not a sufficiently low-down traitorous motive for war. Whatever to that, sir. I roll my eyes at you. In any case it was an unjust war. They knew very well it was hopeless from the beginning. 

You know, there are historians who make it their life's work to study historical revisionism as a production of defeated peoples. In other words all that "the south shall rise again" junk, "Stonewall Jackson," the re-enactments, the "heritage" stuff, the "Lost Cause" romanticism-- that is all part and parcel of how defeated people process their loss and go on living in the face of their defeat. When someone from a defeated society talks like that, people like me say to themselves: "ah, still struggling to cope, are we."

but yeah ... NEVER MIND.

Here's the point:

Why does the American government allow the flag of an armed rebellion, a rebellion put down in battle by American soldiers, to fly over any capital city in this republic? 

How many loyal Americans died to liberate Charleston? Did they die so the flag of their enemy could go on flying above the state house? 

 

 

 

Edited June 21, 2015 by Lilllabettt

[Anomaly]

Hatred and ignorance flies under every flag.   That does not mean every flag should be disallowed.    Stereotypes and broad characterizations are the easy lies for both the ignorant hatef and arrogant hateful.  

 The beauty and ugly of freedom of speech is that nobody gets to pick what others can say.   You get to pick what you, yourself says. 

 

[Guest]

The Confederate flag should not be flying high on capital grounds after what has happened. It shouldn't have been before. This is not trivial.

Edited June 21, 2015 by Guest

[Credo in Deum]

 

Anyone who thinks banning something is going to make it go away is kidding themselves.  Once the ban is in place there needs to be enforcement and even then there are still going to be those who break the law.  Yet I highly doubt that banning abortions is going to increase them more than what we see now.  Yet even if they did increase this should not mean we should make it legal and tolerate it!  We should ban something because it is undignified for human beings.  By making it illegal society makes the statement that such actions are attacks on the dignity of mankind.

Abortion is an attack on mankinds dignity.  It is the deliberate termination of a human being.  Murder. Would anyone advocate that we legalize murder at any other time simply because that type of murder increases in society when it is illegal? If not then you're a hypocrite to be laxed on abortion. The very way we tolerate abortion is utterly disgusting.  And let me be clear, I'm talking about abortion itself and not those who get them.  We need to have patience with women who get them since the majority of society has drunk the cup of ignorance and believes that a zygote is not a human being despite the scientific facts and the testimony of many in the scientific and medical community.  

Furthermore who would think that society is going to address the issues which lead women to abortion while abortion remains legal?  Society isn't going to do anything because it doesn't need to while abortion is legal! This is because by making abortion legal, society has not been forced to address the underlying issues!  We can change this though since by making abortion illegal not only will we be protecting the dignity of human life but we will also be forcing society to address the underlying issues which have lead many women to seek abortions.

 

[Socrates]

​

Oh, spare me. Do you think you are being shocking? Everyone with an 8th grade education knows the cause of the Civil War was one side wanting to preserve the Union and the other wanting to break it up. You seem to think a desire to break up the Union is not a sufficiently low-down traitorous motive for war. Whatever to that, sir. I roll my eyes at you. In any case it was an unjust war. They knew very well it was hopeless from the beginning. 

You know, there are historians who make it their life's work to study historical revisionism as a production of defeated peoples. In other words all that "the south shall rise again" junk, "Stonewall Jackson," the re-enactments, the "heritage" stuff, the "Lost Cause" romanticism-- that is all part and parcel of how defeated people process their loss and go on living in the face of their defeat. When someone from a defeated society talks like that, people like me say to themselves: "ah, still struggling to cope, are we."

but yeah ... NEVER MIND.

Here's the point:

Why does the American government allow the flag of an armed rebellion, a rebellion put down in battle by American soldiers, to fly over any capital city in this republic? 

How many loyal Americans died to liberate Charleston? Did they die so the flag of their enemy could go on flying above the state house? 

​Nothing I wrote should be shocking to anyone, except perhaps an historical illiterate whose brain has been completely rotted away by pc nonsense.

You don't have to agree with the Confederate cause (I don't think either side in that tragic conflict was completely in the right), but anyone who's studied the war and the persons involved in even the slightest depth knows that many good and extremely honorable men of high moral character fought for the South in the war.  It's simply false, not to mention slanderous, to trash almost the entire population of the Southern states as being all vile, evil traitors, and Nazi-like monsters.  Reading one good biography of Lee or Jackson would very quickly cure you of such ignorance. (On Jackson, I'd recommend James Robertson's excellent book, or the recent Rebel Yell, by S.C. Gwynne.  Or if reading's too much trouble, watch the movie Gods & Generals, which gives a fairly accurate portrayal.)

But, yeah, I get it.  The whole matter was settled long ago by force of arms.  The Union was right because it had the supplies and the gun and munitions factories and superior manpower, and won, which proves the absolute righteousness of the its cause.  Since the Confederacy lost, obviously all who fought on that side deserve to be reviled as filthy traitorous scum, or else their memories covered up and forgotten in shame.  'Cause might makes right, and all that.

But, if fighting for independence and self-governance against rule by another government is inherently vile and traitorous, then, rather than honor Washington, Jefferson, Adams & co. as patriots, by your own logic, we should revile them as low-down rotten traitors to the British Crown, of which they were subjects, smash their images, and burn the American flag, while singing hymns to the Queen.

But, yeah, they won that war, and that makes all the difference.

But as you've provided absolutely nothing of historical or intellectual substance, but only empty jingoism, slander, and bile, I don't see a point in engaging your flaming any further.

We should instead all be praying for the murder victims and their families.

[Seven77]

 I think that American citizens who feel nostalgic should fly British flags and celebrate their heritage, because after all, there were good men fighting for England and their memory must be preserved by those of us living in what were once the 13 original colonies.

Long live Britain! God save the Queen!

 

Edited June 21, 2015 by Seven77

[Nihil Obstat]

[Seven77]

 Heritage not Tyranny!

Edited June 21, 2015 by Seven77

[Lilllabettt]

I wonder what the reaction among Germans would be if a government building in the eastern part of Germany hoisted this above their grounds:

 (flag of Soviet puppet government in Eastern Germany before the fall of the Berlin Wall)

Or what about this one over a government building in Poland? I wonder what Poles would say?

 (flag of Soviet puppet government in Poland. The crown traditionally atop the eagle's head was removed)

There's got to be a few veterans of the Pacific front still around. Wonder how they'd feel about the Japanese hoisting this one over Iwo Jima:

 (Imperial flag of Japan, circa WWII)

Or how about the kids whose Dads died to bring down the Imperial regime. I wonder if they would have any strong feelings about the Imperial flag flapping as a celebration of Japanese "heritage" over the soil their people died to liberate. 

Americans are sissies if we roll over and accept this bonkers "heritage" stuff as an excuse to fly the Confederate flag. Ahem, no, you can't fly your flag over government buildings, that is usually a consequence for most everybody if they LOSE A WAR. Dear Sweet Jesus.

Edited June 22, 2015 by Lilllabettt

[Benedictus]

 Heritage not Tyranny!

​Many 'British' Northern Irish see this flag as tyranny and not heritage. Unless the military occupation was a heritage matter Same view from many Scots, Welsh and Cornish too. You'll only see the British flag (usually along with the EU flag) on the top of government buildings, hardly ever near any houses or lawns.

In terms of Germany, it's illegal to own or display nazi symbols or materials. They even had to change the symbols in the game Wolfenstein, well the German released version. It's also illegal to deny the holocaust happened as generally understood. There has been a few academics that have critcised this, as it prevents challenging any figures or events beyond what is allowed as accepted history. I don't think such laws help, it just helps make people who feel national guilt a bit happier.

[Credo in Deum]

 

[Nihil Obstat]

I wonder what the reaction among Germans would be if a government building in the eastern part of Germany hoisted this above their grounds:

 (flag of Soviet puppet government in Eastern Germany before the fall of the Berlin Wall)

Or what about this one over a government building in Poland? I wonder what Poles would say?

 (flag of Soviet puppet government in Poland. The crown traditionally atop the eagle's head was removed)

There's got to be a few veterans of the Pacific front still around. Wonder how they'd feel about the Japanese hoisting this one over Iwo Jima:

 (Imperial flag of Japan, circa WWII)

Or how about the kids whose Dads died to bring down the Imperial regime. I wonder if they would have any strong feelings about the Imperial flag flapping as a celebration of Japanese "heritage" over the soil their people died to liberate. 

Americans are sissies if we roll over and accept this bonkers "heritage" stuff as an excuse to fly the Confederate flag. Ahem, no, you can't fly your flag over government buildings, that is usually a consequence for most everybody if they LOSE A WAR. Dear Sweet Jesus.

Meh. The kyokujitsu-ki is still in pretty regular use and as far as I know it is not considered a controversial symbol in Japan.