Charleston Shooting Suspect (Derailed: Confederate Flag Debate)

[Peace]

Knight:

I do not think that Louis Farrakhan will be dropping by the forum anytime soon, but when a person comes on the forum, asserts that it would be offensive for people to fly the American flag, and that the US Flag should not be flown, then that is an issue that we can discuss.

But regardless, large numbers of African Americans do not find the US Flag to be offensive, or a symbol of racism or hatred. So it does not seem particularly relevant that Abraham Lincoln was a white supremacist (or the various other associations that you attempt to make with the US Flag). Those things may very well be true - but African Americans are not offended when they see the US Flag flown. It does not cause them pain and mental anguish to see the US Flag. For various historical reasons, it does not carry the same racist connotation for them that the Confederate Flag does. So the argument you present seems to be a bit of a red-herring, at least to me.

Regardless of whether the Confederate Flag (or any other flag, statute, etc.) SHOULD be seen as a symbol of racism or hate - the reality is that it IS seen as a symbol of racism and hate to a good number of your neighbors. The question is - as a Catholic and as a follower of Jesus, do you even care about that one bit? Is flying the Confederate Flag so important to you that it does not matter to you if it causes many of your neighbors pain?

Human beings often associate visual elements (such as the Swastika, the Confederate Flag, or the Crucifix) with specific events or ideas. So is it really all that unreasonable for African Americans to see the Confederate Flag as a symbol of racism and hate? The flag was used by people fighting a war to uphold slavery. It's use became widespread among groups such as the Dixiecrats, the Ku Klux Klan, and other violent/segregationist groups. Honestly - does it really seem all that unreasonable to you that African Americans should see the Flag and be reminded of the racism that many of the groups who used it engaged in? Do you honestly believe that the 30 million or so African Americans in this country who find the flag to be an offensive reminder of racist beliefs are all just a bunch of unreasonable crybabies who need to grow thicker skin?

As for whether I am a hypocrite - if a large number of my neighbors thought that the US Flag was offensive and saw it as a reminder of oppression, I would consider not flying the US Flag. Just as I do not fly the Swastika because I know that many of my Jewish neighbors would be highly offended by it, and it would be a painful reminder to them of the injustices that were committed upon them.

Perhaps Native Americans or some other groups feel that way about the US Flag. I have not heard very many complaints from them about the US Flag but perhaps it is offensive to them. If there were some Native Americans among my neighbors and they complained about the US Flag, or if some of them came here on the board and complained about the US Flag, I would hear them out. At the very least I would give consideration to the pain that they might feel when they see the US Flag. I would not simply say "Oh well here is what the US Flag means to me so screw your feelings." That is what people who fly the Confederate Flag are saying.

By all means, if flying the flag is so important to you then go ahead and put the Confederate Flag on your porch. That is your choice. I imagine that many people in some parts of the world might find the Crucifix to be offensive, but it is important enough to me as a reminder of what God did for us, that I would put the Crucifix on my wall regardless of how some other people might see it. With most other symbols - they are not as important to me and if other people find them offensive or hurtful I would consider not using them. . .

[Seven77]

It's certainly a problem that lies about the flag are believed by so many. But it's not a symbol of racism, no more and no less than the American Flag and American symbols. The KKK predominantly uses the American Flag and their own flag, not so much the Confederate. If anyone bothers to look up their little marches they can see with their own eyes that the US Flag is predominantly used by the KKK. But facts like that get in the way.

If we as a nation and as a phorum were logically consistent we'd have to let the extremist rip down US flags, knock down monuments to and dig up the graves of Union/American leaders and military dead.

Again, the red and white stripes of the American Flag were inspired by the East India Company Flag which was heavily involved with the slave trade in Madagascar.

Francis Hopkinson known to have designed Us flag and great seal of United States was a white supremacist he owned something like 130 slaves.

Abraham Lincoln was also a white supremacist he believed and I quote " I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in anyway the social and political equality of the white and black races - that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race."

Where are the calls to dig up Lincoln and to tear down monuments made in his image? Yes he used the war to free the slaves but he was still a big fat racist who wanted to ship African American people back to Africa. It is contradictory and completely hypocritical to just focus on tearing down Confederate symbols, if we used the same logic to tear down American symbols there would hardly be much of a America left.

This whole discussion reminds me of the passage "why seest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye; and seest not the beam that is in thy own eye? Or how sayest thou to thy brother: Let me cast the mote out of thy eye; and behold a beam is in thy own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam in thy own eye, and then shalt thou see to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye."

If you have a problem with Confederate symbols and argue against the public display of them first argue against the public display of American symbols using the same logic. That or be a hypocrite.

 I think that this particular argument was refuted a few posts ago… but since you insist on repeating it:

it seems that many people don't perceive the United States flag as a symbol of hatred and white supremacy. I think it's safe to say that this is the case because  no one really levels those charges against the United States flag. But it seems that many people do think of hatred and/or white supremacy when they see the Confederate flag. A lot of folks say as much. And here is the heart of the thing--- if people or groups of people seem to understand a symbol as representing racism or white supremacy, then out of compassion for these people, someone who perceives the flag as a symbol not representing racism ought not to display it publicly. You're saying that to you, the flag represents cultural stuff that's good. Fine… that's great. But, for a lot of people it represents stuff that is bad… and for the sake of those folks you won't display it when they come to your house. Those peoples perceptions matter.

Again, as many of us have argued, would you put up a rainbow flag in front of your house because to you it symbolizes your favorite candy?

As for whether I am a hypocrite - if a large number of my neighbors thought that the US Flag was offensive and saw it as a reminder of oppression, I would consider not flying the US Flag. Just as I do not fly the Swastika because I know that many of my Jewish neighbors would be highly offended by it, and it would be a painful reminder to them of the injustices that were committed upon them.

Perhaps Native Americans or some other groups feel that way about the US Flag. I have not heard very many complaints from them about the US Flag but perhaps it is offensive to them. If there were some Native Americans among my neighbors and they complained about the US Flag, or if some of them came here on the board and complained about the US Flag, I would hear them out. At the very least I would give consideration to the pain that they might feel when they see the US Flag. I would not simply say "Oh well here is what the US Flag means to me so screw your feelings." That is what people who fly the Confederate Flag are saying.

 

Exactly.

Edited July 14, 2015 by Seven77

[KnightofChrist]

 I think that this particular argument was refuted a few posts ago… but since you insist on repeating it:

it seems that many people don't perceive the United States flag as a symbol of hatred and white supremacy. I think it's safe to say that this is the case because  no one really levels those charges against the United States flag. But it seems that many people do think of hatred and/or white supremacy when they see the Confederate flag. A lot of folks say as much. And here is the heart of the thing--- if people or groups of people seem to understand a symbol as representing racism or white supremacy, then out of compassion for these people, someone who perceives the flag as a symbol not representing racism ought not to display it publicly. You're saying that to you, the flag represents cultural stuff that's good. Fine… that's great. But, for a lot of people it represents stuff that is bad… and for the sake of those folks you won't display it when they come to your house. Those peoples perceptions matter.

Again, as many of us have argued, would you put up a rainbow flag in front of your house because to you it symbolizes your favorite candy?

Nothing was refuted, everyone who has argued against the Confederate flag have made appeals to surrender to mob mentality which is lead by emotion and lacking in consistent reason and logic. It is a contradiction to be against the Confederate as a symbol of racism, but be for American flag and not see it as a symbol of racism. Because the same logic, like it or lump it, being a symbol of racism can indeed be applied to both, if people were honest and unbiased and not in favor of one above the other, they could admit this instead of trying in vain to refute it. But majority opinion doesn't make something right or wrong, and as stated before a majority do not see it as a symbol of racism. So appeals to majority opinion are rather weak.

I wouldn't fly a rainbow flag, I don't actually fly any flags, but I wouldn't presume/judge that someone who does is a supporter of homosexuality. My own mother flew one when I was growing up, along with a lot of other girly looking flags, like cats and butterflies, she is a faithful Catholic. Perhaps others judge a book by it's cover and thought she was pro-homosexual, they were wrong if they did.

But you are right about one thing, we are beginning to repeat ourselves, I guess it is hopeless to ask for consistency in this discussion as people just are not going to be consistent. Contradiction it is I guess... But I'm not going to surrender to the mob, my ancestors fought to protect they homeland from raids of Union armies and soldiers which targeted civilians, women and children. Heck one of the big reasons my great-great... grand father fought was because of this and one of those attacks even included when Yankees stole the family cow. Now that may seem funny to us in modern times, but then it was the livelihood of the family and without the cow they suffered greatly. It didn't have anything to do with slaves as they were too poor to own any. They fought only to protect the ones they love. So yeah I'm not going to give in to the mob here, you guys can if you so wish. But I'm not, no more than I will surrender to the thought most people of Catholics worshiping statues, and priests all being child molesters. I get attacked by those ideas a lot too and they are just as unfounded, the Mediator of Meh rarely uses reason and rarely is it consistent. 

 

That Lincoln believed the white race to be superior has not be refuted. That many other Presidents and many others in leadership within the Untied States from it's founding to modern times also shared this opinion and made other racists statements has not be refuted. That the American flag was inspired by a Slave trading company has not be refuted. That the American Government, Flag and many American symbols were designed by slave owning white supremacists has not be refuted. That America has been more racist and harmful to minorities has not be refuted. People simply choose to give America a pass and judge Confederates unequally and hypocritical. 

Anyway it is time this thread dies. The last word can belong to someone else should they so choose.

Edited July 14, 2015 by KnightofChrist

[Didacus]

Thread is over?

I was just getting used to my new favorite smiley:

 

 

 

 

Does anyone lnow where to find a smiley of the confederate flag?

[Peace]

Knight - the North being more racist and harmful towards minorities than the South? I don't know how you would feel about it, but personally, I am quite glad that the North won and would much rather be a free man in the racist North than a slave in the South. Picking cotton 10 hours a day and getting whipped just isn't my cup of tea, but I can see how some other black people might have preferred it.

But seriously, you see plenty of black people trying to flee the South to the North around that time. How many black folks from the North were trying to flee to the South? Find me that mythical Negro and I think your argument might have some weight.

And I am quite pleased that Jim Crow was overturned. What can I say? I prefer being able to vote, not living under the constant fear of being lynched, and being able to use a public restroom and sit near the front of a bus. Call me crazy I suppose. I can really see how some others might have preferred the opposite.

I think minorities are perfectly capable of thinking and speaking for themselves concerning what they consider to be more harmful to themselves, but by all means please continue to enlighten us about our own preferences.

[KnightofChrist]

Knight - the North being more racist and harmful towards minorities than the South? I don't know how you would feel about it, but personally, I am quite glad that the North won and would much rather be a free man in the racist North than a slave in the South. Picking cotton 10 hours a day and getting whipped just isn't my cup of tea, but I can see how some other black people might have preferred it.

But seriously, you see plenty of black people trying to flee the South to the North around that time. How many black folks from the North were trying to flee to the South? Find me that mythical Negro and I think your argument might have some weight.

And I am quite pleased that Jim Crow was overturned. What can I say? I prefer being able to vote, not living under the constant fear of being lynched, and being able to use a public restroom and sit near the front of a bus. Call me crazy I suppose. I can really see how some others might have preferred the opposite.

I think minorities are perfectly capable of thinking and speaking for themselves concerning what they consider to be more harmful to themselves, but by all means please continue to enlighten us about our own preferences.

I'm glad that slavery for most people in America today is abolished, as well as Jim Crow and other oppressive policies of racist rich elites and political parties. However for others those policies have not ended and as we see today Planned Parenthood is very much in the business of the flesh trade which is just modern day slavery.

I said America, not the North. America as a whole has committed far more crimes against humanity, including racism targeted at African-Americans as well other minorities than the Confederates ever did. But yes in a way today the North is far greater in its crimes against humanity and racism due it embracing Abortion more so than the South.

You have routinely relied on twisting what has been said. I do not for example think African-Americans are incapable of thinking for themselves and speaking themselves. Your implication otherwise is nonsense and baseless. But I do not need to be black to be able to know that it is a fact that Abortion is the gravest threat to the black community. You have not provided examples of greater threats, you have not done so because there is no graver threat. The numbers do not lie, the numbers of those murdered by Abortion out number most other causes of death including other forms of murder and illness. Murder is the great threat to innocent life. There's no graver threat than abortion to African-Americans because nothing murders African-Americans more than abortion. I don't need to be a baby to know abortion is also the greatest threat to babies, because nothing murders babies more than abortion. I will not submit to your position that my skin pigmentation precludes me from warning others of the greatest danger to minority communities as well as to the whole of humanity itself. There have been a billion plus people murdered by abortion since 1980 worldwide and non-whites have been targeted in greater numbers. The gravity of the threat transcends race and I'm not going to be silenced because my skin pigmentation differs from those that are most targeted.

[Peace]

Knight:

I already explained why your "gravest threat" assertion was wrong on page 10 of this thread. And there I also explained some things that are a graver threat to African Americans.

The issue is that you continue to have the audacity to attempt to tell African Americans what is best for ourselves and what our greatest problems are. Your approach towards an African American should be "Please tell me what your greatest problems are?" not "I am going to tell you what your greatest problems are." That is how you speak to a child. That is how you speak to someone that you believe to have inferior intellect.

So, again, you need not speak to us as though we are children and cannot determine for ourselves what our needs are.  If you assumed that we can think for ourselves, then there would not be any need for you to consistently tell us what our greatest problems are, now would there be? Do you walk around telling grown men to wait until the light turns green before crossing the street?

That is a remnant of the master-slave mentality that arose out of the American South, and that some people continue to have whether they realize it or not.

[KnightofChrist]

Yes, I saw your post on page 10, but it was such a backwards and bigoted post I chose not to dignify it with an reply. Morality and 'secular' society cannot be divided as you vainly attempt to justify. The unborn are in no way just blobs of cells no matter what, no matter what time and place, that is a backwards and bigoted ideology and it has no place in a civilized society secular or otherwise. Whether or not one is a productive individual of society the murder of that individual is always murder in a civilized society secular or otherwise. From a purely biological sense unborn children are unique members of the human species and members of the human species are human and all humans are persons. The only ones to ever deny that are the racists and the bigots.

Murder/Abortion break all the commandments not just the First and Fifth, as Father Frank Pavone explains in How Abortion Breaks All Ten Commandments. But just focusing on the 1st and the 5th, Abortion is an attack on the image of God as we are made in the image of God. It is also an act of child sacrifice which is today an form of idolatry to humanism. So again your examples are not more threatening because they are dwarfed by the number of murders Abortion involves.

You are wrong again, I do not speak as one would speak to children. When one speaks to children they speak softly and gently to the child and at times will sugarcoat things as to not scare them too greatly from the wicked dangers of the world. But one can speak bluntly and clearly to adults because they are grown adults and should not have illusions about the dangers of the world, as I have done here. 

Edited July 15, 2015 by KnightofChrist

[Peace]

Knight:

Well. I can see that Credo is not the only person who likes to get up on his high horse. You can refer to my responses to him if you please.

As for the rest of your argument - that is fine. You have your opinion and I have mine. I am not particularly interested in having a detailed discussion about the major problems facing African Americans with a man who flies a Confederate Flag on his porch, notwithstanding the pain that causes many of us. By that you have already indicated that you do not care about African Americans.

[KnightofChrist]

Knight:

Well. I can see that Credo is not the only person who likes to get up on his high horse. You can refer to my responses to him if you please.

As for the rest of your argument - that is fine. You have your opinion and I have mine. I am not particularly interested in having a detailed discussion about the major problems facing African Americans with a man who flies a Confederate Flag on his porch, notwithstanding the pain that causes many of us. By that you have already indicated that you do not care about African Americans.

I have no real wish to continue this discussion, the only reason I've continued to respond is because you continue to make false and baseless charges against my character that I cannot simply ignore. I have not in any manner what-so-ever indicated that I do not care about African-Americans. I don't fly the Confederate flag on my porch or any where else for that matter. Nor am I on a high horse. But I do very much reject your attempt to down play the grave threat of abortion to the African-American community by devaluing and dehumanizing the personhood of its African-American victims who are human persons.

[Seven77]

Nothing was refuted, everyone who has argued against the Confederate flag have made appeals to surrender to mob mentality which is lead by emotion and lacking in consistent reason and logic. It is a contradiction to be against the Confederate as a symbol of racism, but be for American flag and not see it as a symbol of racism. Because the same logic, like it or lump it, being a symbol of racism can indeed be applied to both, if people were honest and unbiased and not in favor of one above the other, they could admit this instead of trying in vain to refute it. But majority opinion doesn't make something right or wrong, and as stated before a majority do not see it as a symbol of racism. So appeals to majority opinion are rather weak.

I wouldn't fly a rainbow flag, I don't actually fly any flags, but I wouldn't presume/judge that someone who does is a supporter of homosexuality. My own mother flew one when I was growing up, along with a lot of other girly looking flags, like cats and butterflies, she is a faithful Catholic. Perhaps others judge a book by it's cover and thought she was pro-homosexual, they were wrong if they did.

But you are right about one thing, we are beginning to repeat ourselves, I guess it is hopeless to ask for consistency in this discussion as people just are not going to be consistent. Contradiction it is I guess... But I'm not going to surrender to the mob, my ancestors fought to protect they homeland from raids of Union armies and soldiers which targeted civilians, women and children. Heck one of the big reasons my great-great... grand father fought was because of this and one of those attacks even included when Yankees stole the family cow. Now that may seem funny to us in modern times, but then it was the livelihood of the family and without the cow they suffered greatly. It didn't have anything to do with slaves as they were too poor to own any. They fought only to protect the ones they love. So yeah I'm not going to give in to the mob here, you guys can if you so wish. But I'm not, no more than I will surrender to the thought most people of Catholics worshiping statues, and priests all being child molesters. I get attacked by those ideas a lot too and they are just as unfounded, the Mediator of Meh rarely uses reason and rarely is it consistent. 

 

That Lincoln believed the white race to be superior has not be refuted. That many other Presidents and many others in leadership within the Untied States from it's founding to modern times also shared this opinion and made other racists statements has not be refuted. That the American flag was inspired by a Slave trading company has not be refuted. That the American Government, Flag and many American symbols were designed by slave owning white supremacists has not be refuted. That America has been more racist and harmful to minorities has not be refuted. People simply choose to give America a pass and judge Confederates unequally and hypocritical. 

Anyway it is time this thread dies. The last word can belong to someone else should they so choose.

 

I've been participating thread in the hopes that we would all arrive at some kind mutual understanding. I will say this: for my part, I am willing to except that you, Knight, have a personal appreciation of the Confederate flag and in no way associate it with racism. However, some people, when they see the flag, associate it with racism. Now, if my friend, for some reason objected to the flag because he associated it with racism, then I would not wear a T-shirt with the flag when my friend came to visit. Likewise, if I had a friend who objected to the American flag, and could not abide seeing it because she associated it with hatred, I would not have public displays of it when she came to visit. This is very simple for me… I think it all boils down to Christian charity. All I am saying is do not give scandal to someone by doing something that he or she finds scandalous. Let's say that I lived with a female friend and we both had separate rooms and did nothing. Many neighbors who see us both going into the house will perceive that we are indeed doing something… so, for the sake of peoples perception, I will not live with my female friend. Do you understand I am saying? This is the heart of my argument/position.

I have no real wish to continue this discussion, the only reason I've continued to respond is because you continue to make false and baseless charges against my character that I cannot simply ignore. I have not in any manner what-so-ever indicated that I do not care about African-Americans. I don't fly the Confederate flag on my porch or any where else for that matter. Nor am I on a high horse. But I do very much reject your attempt to down play the grave threat of abortion to the African-American community by devaluing and dehumanizing the personhood of its African-American victims who are human persons.

 I'm not exactly sure who is downplaying the threat of abortion to the African-American community… I don't think it's quite relevant to this thread. It reminds me of the woman at the talk by the priest from Rwanda… at one point she interrupted his talk about the horrors of the genocide by saying, “what about all those people who died in the Holocaust!? How dare you ignore them."

[Ice_nine]

Peace has more or less spoken against abortion, I don't think he/she thinks it's "not a problem" or that he/she is "dehumanizing the unborn." I think black people get particularly irked because they are more often told things than listened to (in a broad general sense). You could have asked Peace what he/she(sorry idk if you're a man or a woman), as a black person, thinks is the biggest problem facing his community. You won't even hear him out. You may disagree with what he says but at LEAST here the person out first. I disagree with lots of black intellectuals and cultural figures but I at the very least LISTEN to them and don't attempt to take away their voices by shouting over them.

That's how we ~*dialogue*~.

And Seven I just want to say your an amesome dude and your posts are always amesome and I can't recall a time you've lowered yourself to the petty bs the rest of us get into. You deserve a medal.

[Seven77]

Peace has more or less spoken against abortion, I don't think he/she thinks it's "not a problem" or that he/she is "dehumanizing the unborn." I think black people get particularly irked because they are more often told things than listened to (in a broad general sense). You could have asked Peace what he/she(sorry idk if you're a man or a woman), as a black person, thinks is the biggest problem facing his community. You won't even hear him out. You may disagree with what he says but at LEAST here the person out first. I disagree with lots of black intellectuals and cultural figures but I at the very least LISTEN to them and don't attempt to take away their voices by shouting over them.

That's how we ~*dialogue*~.

And Seven I just want to say your an amesome dude and your posts are always amesome and I can't recall a time you've lowered yourself to the petty bs the rest of us get into. You deserve a medal.

 Yeah, we should definitely, especially in a Catholic forum, be willing to hear each other out and try to understand each other.

 Thanks Ice  I appreciate it! I do have to keep reminding myself to be patient though

[Peace]

I have no real wish to continue this discussion, the only reason I've continued to respond is because you continue to make false and baseless charges against my character that I cannot simply ignore. I have not in any manner what-so-ever indicated that I do not care about African-Americans. I don't fly the Confederate flag on my porch or any where else for that matter. Nor am I on a high horse. But I do very much reject your attempt to down play the grave threat of abortion to the African-American community by devaluing and dehumanizing the personhood of its African-American victims who are human persons.

Knight - listen to yourself. You are now the staunch defender of African-American person-hood and a spokesperson for the black community - who thinks it is OK to fly the Confederate Flag?

Rescue us unknowing black folk from the folly of our ways, O' Great White Savior. . .

[KnightofChrist]

Peace has more or less spoken against abortion, I don't think he/she thinks it's "not a problem" or that he/she is "dehumanizing the unborn." I think black people get particularly irked because they are more often told things than listened to (in a broad general sense). You could have asked Peace what he/she(sorry idk if you're a man or a woman), as a black person, thinks is the biggest problem facing his community. You won't even hear him out. You may disagree with what he says but at LEAST here the person out first. I disagree with lots of black intellectuals and cultural figures but I at the very least LISTEN to them and don't attempt to take away their voices by shouting over them.

That's how we ~*dialogue*~.

Peace from a purely secular view point of view did in fact dehumanize and devalue the unborn. I am have forgotten to do so but I thought I did ask everyone what they thought was the biggest threat if not abortion.

In what sense do you believe that abortion is the largest problem facing African Americans? In a secular sense or a moral sense? In a purely secular sense I do not see why the number of black abortions is particularly harmful. The black birth rate is still higher than the white birth rate, from what I understand. If either group is under threat of dying out (or having their numbers significantly decreased) by lack of births I think it is is white Americans. That is why the demographic projections for 20 to 30 years from now show that there will be a minority-majority.

Also, in a purely secular sense, when you commit abortion you typically killing a small number of cells in which no investment has been made. Murder, on the other hand, involves the removal from society of a productive individual, and an individual to whom society has contributed vast resources in raising. That is why in a secular sense - murder is a crime and abortion is almost completely legal. You can find plenty of other problems that are more damaging to African Americans than abortion in a purely secular sense.

And yes I've been hearing Peace out, I know later he walked back that purely secular point of view. But the fact remains he used that point of view to down play the threat and in doing so devalued and dehumanized the unborn.

Knight - listen to yourself. You are now the staunch defender of African-American person-hood and a spokesperson for the black community - who thinks it is OK to fly the Confederate Flag?

Rescue us unknowing black folk from the folly of our ways, O' Great White Savior. . .

Why are you obsessing over the pigmentation of my skin? Why do you find it acceptable to mock me due to the pigmentation of my skin?