Charleston Shooting Suspect (Derailed: Confederate Flag Debate)

[Ice_nine]

If 1,800+ born children and or adult african-american people were being murdered by a group that is funded by the US gov in the streets each day and I spoke of it in the same manner as I do for those preborn children who are murdered each day I highly doubt that anyone would suggest the I was "hung up" or ideological.

Some people probably would.

And anyway, it doesn't matter. If you want to affect real change I'm just telling you how people may perceive your position if you ony seem willing to talk about injustice against preborn blacks and not the rest of them. It doesn't matter if in reality you are hung up or not, I think it's prudent to position your argument in a way that will be most effective. Being against black abortion isn't proof that you think racism exists against post-born blacks or that they bear the brunt of injustice as well, and you seemed to have framed your argument this way.

And again, most people here already know abortion is horrible and I'm sure about just as many would admit that classism and racism play a role in the abortion industry as well as the ridding of "undesirables." You don't need to convince anyone here, so I don't understand the point of reiterating it in this particular thread, but hey it's your choice the internet is free and all of that.

 

I just want you to know that I'm not making value judgments against you, I'm just trying to tell you how your posts might seem to other communities of people that might stumble upon this website or that you might encounter outside of phatmass. You can take it or leave it really but please don't become offended over it. I think it's not worth the energy.

 

[KnightofChrist]

Some people probably would.

And anyway, it doesn't matter. If you want to affect real change I'm just telling you how people may perceive your position if you ony seem willing to talk about injustice against preborn blacks and not the rest of them. It doesn't matter if in reality you are hung up or not, I think it's prudent to position your argument in a way that will be most effective. Being against black abortion isn't proof that you think racism exists against post-born blacks or that they bear the brunt of injustice as well, and you seemed to have framed your argument this way.

And again, most people here already know abortion is horrible and I'm sure about just as many would admit that classism and racism play a role in the abortion industry as well as the ridding of "undesirables." You don't need to convince anyone here, so I don't understand the point of reiterating it in this particular thread, but hey it's your choice the internet is free and all of that.

 

I just want you to know that I'm not making value judgments against you, I'm just trying to tell you how your posts might seem to other communities of people that might stumble upon this website or that you might encounter outside of phatmass. You can take it or leave it really but please don't become offended over it. I think it's not worth the energy.

 

 

I just don't see it ma'am. I know there are those that will always find something wrong with what other people say right or wrong no mater what. But I still highly doubt you or others would have objected to the manner in which I spoke if it was happening in front of our eyes instead of being hidden away in a clinic. Actually I believe most would be far more passionate than I.

I understand racism exist elsewhere there is no doubt of that. Nor is there any doubt that the effects of racism elsewhere are grave threats to African-Americans too. I deplore racism in all its works. But the gravest threat, the threat that dwarfs all others is abortion in African-American communities. That is simply not up for debate and one believes that or one denies it, but it is the truth.

But as I look out into society I see little to no talk about it. Which makes me all the more passionate about it. It feels as if I'm an observer at a hospital seeing the doctors treating one group of patients who've been moderately to seriously injured, while the doctors ignore other patients in graver conditions as they are still being attacked and killed in far higher numbers. Or to put it another way I see society objecting to and being focused on holes being put in the roof of a house while ignoring or paying very little attention to the destruction of the foundation of that house. In those cases I have no doubt that most people, all good persons would feel as I feel and say as I say, yes the holes in the roof are very important but what good is a house if the foundation is destroyed?! That is what is happening to the African-American community. The very foundation of that community which perpetuates its continued existence is being smashed and destroyed. It's being destroyed as America debates the Confederate flag, it's being destroyed as you read these words, it's being destroyed as it is being ignored by society as a whole. 

I am sorry you object to the way I warn against it. I really don't know how else to do so. I suppose I'm not really delicate or soft in my approach, but I don't know how to treat this subject softly or delicately. If you agree that abortion is the gravest threat to the African-American community as I do then give me examples of the type of language I could use rather than just object to the type of language I use presently. How would you warn against this threat, what language would or do you use against it?

Edited July 2, 2015 by KnightofChrist

[Seven77]

 

I just don't see it ma'am. I know there are those that will always find something wrong with what other people say right or wrong no mater what. But I still highly doubt you or others would have objected to the manner in which I spoke if it was happening in front of our eyes instead of being hidden away in a clinic. Actually I believe most would be far more passionate than I.

I understand racism exist elsewhere there is no doubt of that. Nor is there any doubt that the effects of racism elsewhere are grave threats to African-Americans too. I deplore racism in all its works. But the gravest threat, the threat that dwarfs all others is abortion in African-American communities. That is simply not up for debate and one believes that or one denies it, but it is the truth.

But as I look out into society I see little to no talk about it. Which makes me all the more passionate about it. It feels as if I'm an observer at a hospital seeing the doctors treating one group of patients who've been moderately to seriously injured, while the doctors ignore other patients in graver conditions as they are still being attacked and killed in far higher numbers. Or to put it another way I see society objecting to and being focused on holes being put in the roof of a house while ignoring or paying very little attention to the destruction of the foundation of that house. In those cases I have no doubt that most people, all good persons would feel as I feel and say as I say, yes the holes in the roof are very important but what good is a house if the foundation is destroyed?! That is what is happening to the African-American community. The very foundation of that community which perpetuates its continued existence is being smashed and destroyed. It's being destroyed as America debates the Confederate flag, it's being destroyed as you read these words, it's being destroyed as it is being ignored by society as a whole. 

I am sorry you object to the way I warn against it. I really don't know how else to do so. I suppose I'm not really delicate or soft in my approach, but I don't know how to treat this subject softly or delicately. If you agree that abortion is the gravest threat to the African-American community as I do then give me examples of the type of language I could use rather than just object to the type of language I use presently. How would you warn against this threat, what language would or do you use against it?

I would like to address your message here.... based on my own personal observations and experience, when someone is consistently vocal in denouncing small evils, people take note when that person denounces larger evils. But, if someone doesn't address small evils at all, no one will listen to that person when that person talks about larger evils. You know what I'm saying? In other words, for the sake of credibility, we should object to every evil no matter how small it may seem so that people may pay attention when we talk about more serious evil. People can see the damage on the roof but they need a good worker who cares about the holes to show them the greater damage to the foundation.

Edited July 3, 2015 by Seven77

[Seven77]

Anyone disrespecting the American flag should have their a## kicked or worse. Again I don't think the c.f. should be banned or Dukes should be canceled. I just don't see why it should be flying on government properties. I've yet to hear a convincing argument as to why it should. Also I think it's pretty sad how little empathy has been shown to these black Churches from Catholics in general. It's always troubled me that no matter what Catholic Church I've gone too at any point of my life there are hardly any black Catholics. Yet non Catholic Churches are filled with blacks and whites worshiping together. I've always found that really troubling. 

I  definitely agree with you about the Dukes of Hazzard… that's definitely going to far. Here's the thing, the car, called the General Lee, has a context in which we can understand the usage of the flag as not racism. Now, when a Confederate flag flies from a state capital or visibly in someone's yard, there are no nuances or explanations--- and that's the problem there because people will automatically, for better or worse, assume racism.

Where I live, I've seen a lot of black Catholics in the parishes around here, white people, black people, and international people worshiping together. Can we do a better job? No doubt. Maybe God is calling you to do something…

[Guest]

[Guest]

I just  wrote a post responding to you Nihi but Phatmass is not working. What I said was how am I supposed to stop anyone from taking the Flag so serious? It's just a reality I'm observing. I don't even own a gun. There's a Catholic on my news feed who constantly post pictures of all his guns and he rants and goes on and on about his loyalty to the "Old Merica" How exactly am I supposed to stop him if he decides to hurt some anti American heclor? Do you want me to report him to the FBI or something? I don't get what the hell you exactly want from me.

Edited July 3, 2015 by Guest

[Guest]

How do you want me to stop over zealous Catholics and Non Catholics alike going to extreme with their defense of the flag? 

[KnightofChrist]

I would like to address your message here.... based on my own personal observations and experience, when someone is consistently vocal in denouncing small evils, people take note when that person denounces larger evils. But, if someone doesn't address small evils at all, no one will listen to that person when that person talks about larger evils. You know what I'm saying? In other words, for the sake of credibility, we should object to every evil no matter how small it may seem so that people may pay attention when we talk about more serious evil. People can see the damage on the roof but they need a good worker who cares about the holes to show them the greater damage to the foundation.

I understand what you are saying. I'm not blind to the other issues of racism, nor am I silent about those issues. I do speak against racism in all its forms but how I do so is not to be measured by a few posts in this thread, nor all of my posts on PM. Speech on the internet only gives you a slice of the person speaking. It only gives us a glimpse into the lives, words, and actions of others. Also I'm just one man, I'm against racism as a whole, but yes my focus is on what is the greatest and most vile threat and form of racism. Again I understand what you mean, but there are many voices focused on the other issues, and there is nothing wrong with that at all, we cannot be blind to those issues. But as a society we are very blind to what is effectively the extermination of the African-American.

Lastly one small reason I repeated myself in this thread about it is because I did not see anyone else publicly address it along with me. I suppose most did agree in silence but it would have been nice to have seen it publicly, without having to defend myself.

Edited July 3, 2015 by KnightofChrist

[Nihil Obstat]

 

I just  wrote a post responding to you Nihi but Phatmass is not working. What I said was how am I supposed to stop anyone from taking the Flag so serious? It's just a reality I'm observing. I don't even own a gun. There's a Catholic on my news feed who constantly post pictures of all his guns and he rants and goes on and on about his loyalty to the "Old Merica" How exactly am I supposed to stop him if he decides to hurt some anti American heclor? Do you want me to report him to the FBI or something? I don't get what the hell you exactly want from me.

Wat.

[Socrates]

dylan doesn't have to be part of a larger group. He could be a "lone wolf" who inspired further crimes against Blacks.

Knight you seem pretty hung up on black abortion. I admit it's a huge problem. But the abuse Black folks deal with outside the womb is still unjust and horrible and I think if you focus on one or the other you might come off as more of an ideologue than someone who actually cares and sympathizes with Black people. I'm not saying you are, but racism runs deep in these here parts.

I think Knight has a totally legit point regarding the obscene hypocrisy and double standards of the modern left.

We're supposed to get whipped up into a frenzy of outrage over flags and band-aids and "microagressions" and "unconscious racism," but those folks have no problem whatever with the slaughter of black children in the womb.

Confederate flags need to be banned and burned and purged from existence because of historical associations with slavery and racism, yet they've got no problem with the blatantly racist and eugenicist agenda of Planned Parenthood founder Margaret Sanger, who wanted to stop the uncontrolled breeding of "Negroes" and other "inferior races," and who's still largely regarded by the left as a feminist hero.  They're happy with her legacy of Planned Parenthood clinics still standing throughout the country, and with their continued work of killing heavily minority populations of children.

It's a little like getting worked up over alleged "microagressions" against Jews, then shrugging off the Holocaust.

But, I know, only crazy right-wing ideologues are concerned about such stuff.

 

Also, while the Charleston church killer's crime was indeed horrific, it was still just one guy, and hardly representative of white people, or Southern whites, in general.

[Socrates]

 

So you would not harm a person disrespecting the flag, but you would let someone else do it instead? What was that about freedom again?

Take it seriously all you want. But it is both sociopathic and hugely contradictory to wish allow or commit harm on someone who peacefully, if distastefully, disagrees with you.

 

You runnin' down my country, hoss, you're walkin' on the fightin' side of me!

 

[Nihil Obstat]

Good song, not a sentiment I can relate to.

[Ice_nine]

I don't care if anyone wants to burn the American flag either. They only thing that makes me wary is if there is a desire or intention for real violence behind it.

Maybe I should care, but it's cloth. I like being free (relatively speaking) and being able to walk around most places without the fear or expectation that I'll get blown to smitherenes, but I'm not proud of my country's aggressive, blow-anyone-to-hell foreign policy and call it "fighting for freedom," while the US has a two-tiered educational and judicial system that negatively affect poor and/or black folks while it favors the wealthy and/or white folks.

I wouldn't burn an American flag (or any nation's flag, except maybe ISIS idk) because I know it means a lot to some people. But I'm not gonna attack or wish harm upon any that might. I think the star spangled banner represents all the wonderful ideals our country has to offer, but also bloodshed, racism, hypocrisy as well. A lot of really terrible atrocities have been done in the name of America and there are no doubt a number of people who see nothing but pain and oppression when they look at it.

But it's silly to say "well if you want the confed. flag to be banned then you should also want the American flag to be banned . . ." because it ain't gonna happen. The USA is the winner. She gets to fly her flag. Can you imagine if the government actually acknowledged all the terrible things that have been done under the flag?! lol not gonna happen

[Socrates]

I'm actually against the desecration of either flag, though I'm a little ambivalent about banning flag-burning by federal law (mostly for "slippery slope"-type reasons).

My point (if anyone's actually referring to it) was that a lot of liberals are very inconsistent and hypocritical in their approach to "free speech" issues.  They believe absolute free expression should be protected, and even publicly funded, if it happens to offend certain persons (i.e. Christians or patriotic Americans), but not if it offends other persons (i.e. Muslims, or those offended by Confederate flags).

[Peace]

Pretty interesting thread you have here.  My initial thought about the Confederate Flag was "ban it" but I think there is a good argument that people should be free to use it, as a form of free speech. The argument about how some people view the US Flag and other symbols was rather convincing I think.

At the same time - if there were a vote: "Should the Confederate Flag be hung on state property" - I would definitely vote "no". I would hope that others would be considerate of the way that many people view that flag, and what it means to them, regardless of what it means to them personally, when deciding how to vote on themselves.

For me, my High School Mascot was "Indians". When we put on the uniforms we did not mean to offend anyone by it. Perhaps to us the Mascot was a symbol of "fighting spirit". But at the same time, if I know that the use of that is offensive and painful to many Native Americans, I would want to think twice about whether it is something that I need to use, or whether I can use something else as a Mascot.

You don't necessarily have to stop using the Mascot or take the flag down, but at least consider how other people view it, and ask yourself if whether what you get out of using it is worth the pain that it's use might inflict on other people . . .

I think most of the frustration on the part of people who want to ban it is that the people who want to continue using seem not to care much about the pain it causes them.

 

I just don't see it ma'am. I know there are those that will always find something wrong with what other people say right or wrong no mater what. But I still highly doubt you or others would have objected to the manner in which I spoke if it was happening in front of our eyes instead of being hidden away in a clinic. Actually I believe most would be far more passionate than I.

I understand racism exist elsewhere there is no doubt of that. Nor is there any doubt that the effects of racism elsewhere are grave threats to African-Americans too. I deplore racism in all its works. But the gravest threat, the threat that dwarfs all others is abortion in African-American communities. That is simply not up for debate and one believes that or one denies it, but it is the truth.

But as I look out into society I see little to no talk about it. Which makes me all the more passionate about it. It feels as if I'm an observer at a hospital seeing the doctors treating one group of patients who've been moderately to seriously injured, while the doctors ignore other patients in graver conditions as they are still being attacked and killed in far higher numbers. Or to put it another way I see society objecting to and being focused on holes being put in the roof of a house while ignoring or paying very little attention to the destruction of the foundation of that house. In those cases I have no doubt that most people, all good persons would feel as I feel and say as I say, yes the holes in the roof are very important but what good is a house if the foundation is destroyed?! That is what is happening to the African-American community. The very foundation of that community which perpetuates its continued existence is being smashed and destroyed. It's being destroyed as America debates the Confederate flag, it's being destroyed as you read these words, it's being destroyed as it is being ignored by society as a whole. 

I am sorry you object to the way I warn against it. I really don't know how else to do so. I suppose I'm not really delicate or soft in my approach, but I don't know how to treat this subject softly or delicately. If you agree that abortion is the gravest threat to the African-American community as I do then give me examples of the type of language I could use rather than just object to the type of language I use presently. How would you warn against this threat, what language would or do you use against it?

Are you African American? If not it would seem rather audacious that you would attempt to tell an African American what is the biggest problem facing his/her community. It would be like if I were to walk onto a Native American reservation and proclaim "Don't you people know what your biggest problem is? Alcoholism!" I could expect their reaction to be "who are you and where do you get the right to speak on our behalf?"