hotpink Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 Sometimes I wonder if things would be worse if we didn't have Vat II- or without it, if the Church would be able to rise from the horrors of the present age at all. I think sometimes people think "Evils X, Y, and Z happened BECAUSE OF Vat II", but really they happened due to sin in the hearts of laity and Bishops, (especially where they failed in in their responsibilities). They used Vat II as an excuse in a lot of cases and misused it for their own means, but in the end I find Vat II to be a great source of grace and help for the Church in these times, and I think it will continue to be so even if "things get worse". At least in my personal life. I suspect holding Vat II, even with the consequences of people misusing it, will be worth it in the end. There are many things "allowed" by Vatican 2 that Lifeteen made use of. I like them very much, and other poster's claim that "no one" likes pop/rock music is stupid. Everyone has musical tastes that differ, and the reason it works for so many is because it appeals to many. Mass was always meant to be a living entity. That in the late middle ages that growth stopped is an abuse in itself, relegating Mass to a reflection of the people. But back to Vatican 2. So many of the abuses happened during times before Vatican 2 and were just not spoken of. I think that the clerical abuses and people talking about them is a sign of the times, not of the Church itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
veritasluxmea Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 I think you are misunderstanding me. Authority is necessary but not sufficient concerning liturgical reforms. Why not? Anyways, I wouldn't say the Norvous Order as envisioned by Vat II was a complete break from tradition. Badly done Norvus Ordos, yes. On another note, a better side affect is it cleaned up the Extraordinary Form really well- nowadays in the Americas liturgical abuse with that form are practically non-existent, due to people seeking refuge in it from the Norvus Ordo abuses. General question, are "Catholic vs Catholic" discussions like this allowed here? Maybe we should take this to pm or debate table- I don't want to break rules or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puellapaschalis Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 Do I have anything to add? Not really, hence my use of the thumbs in the main. I find what Nihil says on the topic mainly reasonable and concurring with my own thoughts, derived from my own reading and experience, so there's that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 Why not? Anyways, I wouldn't say the Norvous Order as envisioned by Vat II was a complete break from tradition. Badly done Norvus Ordos, yes. On another note, a better side affect is it cleaned up the Extraordinary Form really well- nowadays in the Americas liturgical abuse with that form are practically non-existent, due to people seeking refuge in it from the Norvus Ordo abuses. General question, are "Catholic vs Catholic" discussions like this allowed here? Maybe we should take this to pm or debate table- I don't want to break rules or something. The Novus Ordo was not envisioned by the Council. It came afterwards and was the work of a committee. It is likely that few if any Council fathers imagined that S.C. would imply the creation of an entirely new Mass out of thin air. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash Wednesday Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 General question, are "Catholic vs Catholic" discussions like this allowed here? It gets verboten when Catholics start debating the legitimacy of the Novus Ordo or Vatican II. Moving this to the debate table, assuming that people still want to actually talk about LifeTeen. Hint, hint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
:o)Katherine:o) Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 I'm interested to hear what you know about lifeteen. Not to start a debate buy just legitimately curious. LittleWaySoul- We have had Life Teen at my parish for at least 10 years. There came a time when some of our volunteers realized that some of the teachings did not fall in line with the Catholic Church. This was also the same time that the founder was removed from the program. Life Teen updated their curriculum and has removed any curriculum that was previously available that was not in line with our church teachings. The Life Teen program flourishes at our parish. We are a very small parish and have one of the most active groups in our diocese. The curriculum meets the requirements of religious education of our diocese. It is up to the dre/youth minister to choose how to run the program. The program breaks down into semesters- Fall and Spring. Each semester has suggested "life nights" and inside are ice breakers, teachings, small groups, times of prayer etc. We base what we do by the needs of our teens so we adapt as needed. The motto for Life Teen is "leading teens closer to Christ". The way we run our program at our parish is to not only lead them through catechetical teaching and personal testimony/ witness (experience) but we also lead them through the sacraments. We have a Sunday youth Mass where the teens are the alter servers, lectors, ushers, singers and more. Many of the teens receive on the tongue and some even kneel. We now have at least 4 to 5 minutes after everyone has received the Eucharist for meditation and prayers of thanksgiving (this is something that the teens requested). They have a desire to go to Confession and Eucharistic Adoration as often as possible. Before our parish utilized the Life Teen program, teens would be confirmed and most would never step foot in the church again. Now, we have teens that come back after they are confirmed to help with the program and become more involved in parish life. Many of our teens through their active witness of their faith are bringing their friends and family members to the church. We are beginning to see vocations come from our parish from some that were involved in our Life Teen program to holy orders and the consecrated life. Of course, this is just our personal experience with this program. Every parish is different as to how they implement the program and the results that come from it. I hope that this helps! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
veritasluxmea Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 It gets verboten when Catholics start debating the legitimacy of the Novus Ordo or Vatican II. Moving this to the debate table, assuming that people still want to actually talk about LifeTeen. Hint, hint. Thank you! The Novus Ordo was not envisioned by the Council. It came afterwards and was the work of a committee. It is likely that few if any Council fathers imagined that S.C. would imply the creation of an entirely new Mass out of thin air Ok, and? This probably sounds like a dumb question... how do you know what they did/didn't envision? I'm still not following how authority doesn't play in here, and again, I don't think the norvus ordo was created out of thin air. It follows the structure of the Extraordinary Form pretty closely (at least from my perspective as someone following along in the pew, especially the better-done ones). Do you have some reason for thinking it was created out of thin air? Sorry if this sounds choppy- I like the discussion we're having but my brain is fried from this weekend and words are hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 The structure, the order of the Mass is simply the bare bones. The real identity and defining characteristics of the Roman Rite is its propers and to a somewhat lesser extent its calendar. In the creation of the Novus Ordo the propers were mostly thrown out and rewritten (frankly a crime against Catholic patrimony) and the calendar was altered on a massive and rather heavy handed scale. For those reasons and others I think it is extremely clear that the Novus Ordo was certainly a new creation, not a minor variation of the classical rite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthfinder Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 I highly suggest that those who are interested in just how things were changed by committee and the cutting-and-pasting of various texts to form the collects of the OF (as well as proposed changes that thankfully were not made) should read Lauren Pristas' Collects of the Roman Missals of 1962 and 2002. It certainly on the academic side, but it very usefully compares the Latin texts of both missals. It also contains quotations from the various committees etc. But back to Lifeteen - my one parish (which I'm still linked to), did away with the Young Adult Mass years ago. The Mass still exists, but it now is done pretty much the same way as the other regular Sunday Masses with the opportunity afterwards for some fellowship for the teens and young adults. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vee Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 Since there are four pages of this thread Im sorry if i missed it but since the life teen guy was excommunicated years ago whats happened to him since? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominicansoul Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 the two priests work at that non-denominational praise and worship center. one of them is married now. they promise their congregation "No Catholic doctrine is preached here, only Biblical based teaching." bitter much? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vee Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 Wow he really got away scott free considering all the allegations against him! I found his praise and worship center's website. Looks like the life teen masses we used to have at my parish *gag* Its like if you arent holding hands and/or raising your arms you arent praising God from his website Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthfinder Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 Wow he really got away scott free considering all the allegations against him! I found his praise and worship center's website. Looks like the life teen masses we used to have at my parish *gag* Its like if you arent holding hands and/or raising your arms you arent praising God from his website The banners! - an inverse relationship between number of banners and orthodoxy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vee Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 We used to have nicer banners... back in 1905 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthfinder Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 We used to have nicer banners... back in 1905 To console myself, I can also look at the nice banners from the Chartres pilgrimage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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