Could someone help me out please?

[JessieL]

Thought about posting this on the vocation side but didn't want to insult anyone. A very good friend of mine said she wants to be a nun and frankly I think she is crazy. I mean I'm Catholic but not like that. The whole thing where you couldn't see your family and had to give up all your stuff and do ANYTHING they tell you to do always kind of rang cult warning bells in my head. And I'm worried that my friend isn't getting the whole story from the nuns that she's talking to. I'm willing to reconsider my ideas but could someone explain to me why religious orders aren't cults when other groups that do the same things are?

[veritasluxmea]

One reason, of many, that religious orders aren't cults is that the person is free to leave at any time before they makes final vows and they can be hard to get into. you have to go through an application and interview process, and some people are refused or even asked to leave, whereas with cults as long as you follow them you can get in. Cults abuse people, religious orders don't. If following the rules is a challenge and threat to your health it's not a good fit and you are free to go. 

But probably the main difference is that people living in religious life are in love with Jesus. They choose to be there. Frankly, for people whom God wants to be nuns, it's a good life for them. They have the support of a community, spend time in prayer each day like all Catholics should do, and sometimes work as teachers or nurses like "other" people. They can watch movies, do physical activity like basketball or volleyball, and so on. They usually have a more healthy lifestyle than some people tbh! Just because they wear different clothes, live a life with a set of schedule and rules, and live in a community instead of with a husband and children doesn't mean they are a cult. If you are able, I would recommend visiting a religious order yourself for a day or so to see what it's like. They usually love to host guests and some orders have retreats that aren't about vocations or joining, just for people to visit and pray. 

I think this should be moved to the vocation station, it will be more easily answered there. 

[vee]

Mediators of Meh I suggest this thread be moved to vocation station.  That way actual religious who may not go to other parts of the phorum can help address the question.

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

I think there are a number of people on Vocation Station who could help you out, if you are genuinely open to reconsidering your ideas, as it sounds like you are.

I think that somewhere you have gotten some ideas about nuns/Religious Sisters that are either exaggerated, out-of-date, or come from non-Catholic sources. Religious Orders are different from cults in a number of very important ways, including, for example, the fact that a great many of them have been around for hundreds of years, versus cults, which are normally recently formed. Also, the Church has a number of "checks and balances" in place to ensure that Religious Orders remain healthy psychologically as well as faithful to the spirit in which they were founded.

Certainly, individual men and women have had bad experiences with specific religious Communities. But, take a deep breath, and listen to what your friend has to say. If she is interested in joining a Community in good standing with the Roman Catholic Church, it may not be the life you yourself are called to, but it also is probably not a "cult."

I'm going to ask that this thread be moved to Vocation Station so that others can answer your question, perhaps even some Phatmass members who are currently part of a religious Community.

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

I forgot, Welcome to Phatmass!

[vee]

lol we all posted basically the same thing at the same time!

[Nunsuch]

Jessie, as others have already said, your impressions of convent life seem to be very inaccurate. My advice is that you begin by looking at some websites for religious communities; you will see that there is a tremendous variety of communities out there, but that all of them have members who are happy and fulfilled. You may also want to look at some general sites to give you an overview. One from a more traditional perspective is Imagine Sisters. Another that is more progressive is A Nuns Life.  There are literally hundreds of others.  But just a little time looking should begin to reassure you.

[vee]

There is much to say on this subject but one of the first things to look at is the end goal of a destructive cult and of a religious community.  Pick any cult you like and look at their goal.  Often it is to give their leader power and money.  Look at a religious community like the Missionaries of Charity and what their goal is.  Basically by their fruit you shall know them so look at the fruit, the product of their lives.

[JessieL]

Actually I did look at one of the websites and to be honest, it freaked me out even more.  My friend is planning to go on a weekend retreat with the Dominicans in Nashville (who seem to be fairly popular around here and so maybe someone else will know about what I’m saying).  I did go to their website and watched their video and at first I thought, ‘This is nice; they teach kids and my friend would be a really good teacher’.  Well, I wandered around the site a little more and found the article about St. Dominic and all his ways of prayer—and how he used to regularly beat himself with a whip, stand catatonically before the altar and physically attack his followers.  Seriously; there’s a story about how he just totally beat the snot out of this guy just for mentioning that a woman was pretty or something like that.  Maybe I’m misinterpreting or reading out of context or something, but I personally would NOT want to be a follower of this guy.  This was all out in the open on the website, like they were saying that they approved of all this, and I started wondering, ‘So is my friend going to have to whip herself?  Is she going to get beat up (either physically or emotionally) just for looking a boy wrong?’  I asked her about it and she just kind of laughed and said, ‘Of course they don’t do things like that anymore; that was the twelfth century.’ But I’m wondering ‘Does she know that for sure?  I seriously doubt they are going to bring that up in the vocation literature but if they are so enamored of St. Dominic, who knows what they might think is ok?’

I used to hear all these stories about nuns who were grumpy and horrible to be around and worse ones about how some of them beat and abused students or orphans.  (And I googled the Nashville Dominicans and it brought up some pretty nasty stuff about their college—particularly the nursing school)  I imagine that if I were pulled away from my family for the purpose of ‘integrating with the community’ and that community was full of horrible people, I could change into a horrible person too and not even realize it and the next thing I know, I’m verbally abusing this kid in my class and making his life miserable just because mine is and I don’t even have enough of me left to realize it anymore.

I’m really sorry.  I didn’t mean this to sound so horrible and judgmental of other people’s life choices and I’m sure that not all, if any, of the Dominicans are horrible people to be around (and I definitely did NOT mean to suggest that they abuse children).  But my friend is such a beautiful person and the idea of someone destroying that (and thinking that it is religious to do so) just makes me sick.  I guess I’m just here looking for reassurance that all these fears are unfounded and that my friend isn’t going to get hurt.  Someone please tell me I’m wrong about all this.

[veritasluxmea]

Actually I did look at one of the websites and to be honest, it freaked me out even more.  My friend is planning to go on a weekend retreat with the Dominicans in Nashville (who seem to be fairly popular around here and so maybe someone else will know about what I’m saying).  I did go to their website and watched their video and at first I thought, ‘This is nice; they teach kids and my friend would be a really good teacher’.  Well, I wandered around the site a little more and found the article about St. Dominic and all his ways of prayer—and how he used to regularly beat himself with a whip, stand catatonically before the altar and physically attack his followers.  Seriously; there’s a story about how he just totally beat the snot out of this guy just for mentioning that a woman was pretty or something like that.  Maybe I’m misinterpreting or reading out of context or something, but I personally would NOT want to be a follower of this guy.  This was all out in the open on the website, like they were saying that they approved of all this, and I started wondering, ‘So is my friend going to have to whip herself?  Is she going to get beat up (either physically or emotionally) just for looking a boy wrong?’  I asked her about it and she just kind of laughed and said, ‘Of course they don’t do things like that anymore; that was the twelfth century.’ But I’m wondering ‘Does she know that for sure?  I seriously doubt they are going to bring that up in the vocation literature but if they are so enamored of St. Dominic, who knows what they might think is ok?’

​She's right, they don't do that anymore. And they don't lie; you could ask them yourself (or go and see for yourself). As for what St Dominic did in the past, you have to consider the time he lived in- back then a man lusting after a women was taken very seriously and was very offensive to a religious person. Think about if, if a women showed ankle that was considered inappropriate and immodest. Imagine actually saying something crass to a religious person! If the information is out there on the internet, it's not like the Dominicans are trying to hide it. They probably understand how to appropriately live out his principles in in this day and age. No, she won't get "in trouble" for "looking at a boy wrong." But she is planning to live for Jesus alone and not have relations with a man- she will be faithful to Jesus like a women would to her husband. It wouldn't be appropriate for her to "cheat" on Jesus like that. The order will probably teach that in their classes for newcomers- but if she struggles with it they might have a discussion if this life is a good fit for her or not. That's about it, they're not going to beat her or forcibly lock her in a room against her will or something. If it's not a good lifestyle for her, she can easily live and the Dominicans will help her get back into the world as best they can. 

I know there's a lot of misinformation out there about nuns and it seems scary, but they're actually really nice. Seriously, I knew one sister in my old diocese who would carry around chocolate kisses everyone. She was the sweetest, most gentle person I ever met. People exaggerate and make up scary rumors about other people they don't understand. If you ever spent time around some good nuns, you'd have a much different perspective. I'd recommend joining your friend on the retreat if at all possible, you can definitely go if you don't have a vocation or want to join, it's open to everyone. I've even meet non-Catholics there!

I'm not informed enough about the rumors of their college to make a statement, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was ill-founded, similar to how students in college will find a class hard or to strict or not get the grade they wanted and go slander the professor and make mountains out of molehills, while other students had a great time in the exact same situation. 

Someone please tell me I’m wrong about all this.

​Good news, you are. 

[TheresaThoma]

At my old parish I knew a family of one of the Nashville Dominicans and also got to meet the Sister when she was on a home visit. The Sister's mom mentioned that at the beginning it was a bit hard, but that is common to anyone who has a child that moves half way across the country. I have also met some of the Nashville Dominicans in other settings. They are some of the happiest well rounded and balanced people I have ever met. The things that you mention you are concerned about are not issues. You have to take everything you read on the internet with a grain of salt. There is a lot of bad (and wrong information) mixed in with the good about religious life on the internet. I would suggest getting to know some Sisters yourself before freaking out.

I am personally discerning and have friends that are Sisters. For those that are still in formation there is some restriction on communication (ie they don't use email) but they are certainly free to write letters as often as they have time. Families can also visit and in active orders Sisters are allowed to go home periodically to visit their family. As far as giving up possessions that is how the earliest Christians lived, having everything in common (see Acts of the Apostles) religious communities try to live like that. With the obedience part it isn't absolute obedience. One Sister I know described it as obedience in dialogue. The Sisters discern with their superiors about the major decisions (ie before moving to a different location, changing apostolates etc). But there is also the obedience at the level of day to day stuff such as when you cook or what your cleaning tasks are. If you have ever lived with more than 1 or 2 people you know that you have to have obedience with regards to that stuff just to manage the day to day tasks. Maybe you hate mopping but you still have to do it because that is part of living with others and obedience.  Yes religious life can seem a bit odd and maybe even scary at first but I think once you learn a bit more you will find it is a beautiful part of our Faith.

[Antigonos]

I regret to say that something strikes me as not quite -- dare I say it? -- kosher about JessieL.  It may just be the way she expresses herself.  But I'm not Catholic, or even Christian, and I don't have the misconceptions about religious life she expresses.  What she writes seems beyond antipathy.  Little alarm bells are ringing in my head, suggesting "troll".  I hope I'm wrong.

[beatitude]

I regret to say that something strikes me as not quite -- dare I say it? -- kosher about JessieL.  It may just be the way she expresses herself.  But I'm not Catholic, or even Christian, and I don't have the misconceptions about religious life she expresses.  What she writes seems beyond antipathy.  Little alarm bells are ringing in my head, suggesting "troll".  I hope I'm wrong.

​Antigonos, you're not the only one. My immediate thought was "Is this a new username for Oremus1/oratefratres?" (who recently tried posting a troll question anonymously in Catholic Q&A and didn't get a response). Maybe we're hyper-sensitive to trolling because the board has seen a bit too much of it lately, but something seems off about the thread to me as well.

[MarysLittleFlower]

Thought about posting this on the vocation side but didn't want to insult anyone. A very good friend of mine said she wants to be a nun and frankly I think she is crazy. I mean I'm Catholic but not like that. The whole thing where you couldn't see your family and had to give up all your stuff and do ANYTHING they tell you to do always kind of rang cult warning bells in my head. And I'm worried that my friend isn't getting the whole story from the nuns that she's talking to. I'm willing to reconsider my ideas but could someone explain to me why religious orders aren't cults when other groups that do the same things are?

They are not cults for several reasons... For one, the nun does this out of love for God, freely, not out of fear - with cults its usually fear or a focus on the cult leader. Here the Mother Superior is someone who guides her and obedience is chosen freely, but the emphasis is in God not a leader. Its like in general how we obey the Church for God's sake, and in obeying it, we obey Him. Cults are based on fear and trying to get more members. Monasteries don't try to get you to join, they discern with you. I think the main thing to understand about religious life is that for those who have this vocation, they want to love God so exclusively that it's a joy to give up all these things. Marriage and an active life in the world are good things but they would be like a prison to someone who God chose to be a nun. Its a supernatural vocation and so its above nature. Natural desires are still there but this is stronger. Once you really feel a call - its like a loving invitation and since the person wants to love God completely, (which we are all called to do) - they're free but its hard to say no to God who loves you so greatly and desires you to be hidden and alone with Him. Its like living only with your Beloved... Rather than a prison that keeps you from a world you miss. You still miss your family but its not like you never see them again - you do get to meet with them even in strict communities. What I'm trying to say is that the enclosure and rules is not a running from the world, but running to something else, and its to keep the world out to avoid distractions so the nuns can concentrate on prayer. I'd recommend to you reading the story of Mary and Martha. nuns here would be like Mary. See we were created only for God... To love God... That will be each soul in Heaven. Some are called to start this kind of life more visibly on earth. All these other things fade in importance as we get to know God even living in the world. Only His Will remains. For myself I would love to be a nun and the only reason I wouldn't is if God called me to stay in the world. But not everyone is called to have an earthly spouse. Some are called to give their heart to God exclusively. There's nothing in common with cults here. Cults are based on manipulation. This is a free, loving relationship with God where you want to concentrate on Him more. Do you know how convents started? Do you really believe the Church would allow cults, and hundreds of Saints would come from these cults? Religious life didn't start with a few leaders brainwashing people to join some organisation. Convents started with young women who didn't want to marry and usually lived at home but later they living together and came up with a common prayer schedule, etc. This is totally different from people who don't want to marry cause they hate marriage, hate men or fear commitments. Religious life is an invitation from God to love Him in a deeper exclusive way while marriage is seen as a good thing. He made us for Himself, after all God bless you 

[JessieL]

Well, I'm not even sure what 'troll' means so I hesitate to declare that I am not one.  But for the record, I have not always been Catholic so I may have gotten this bad attitude that way.  

I probably am sounding too harsh...but from my POV, it feel like I am losing someone I care about.  So a lot of this is probably selfishness on my part and trying to find a good reason for her not to go off somewhere that I just can't imagine going.  Don't understand why she can't 'love Jesus' and still stay around here where all the people she loves and who love her are.

Going to confession on Tuesday BTW...