Trangender identity/language

[Ice_nine]

Warm hugs are good.

​No homo?

[Credo in Deum]

Fr. Barron wrote an interesting piece on this Bruce Jenner situation and the link to Gnosticism.

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/column.php?n=3225

 

[CrossCuT]

So question for any of you out there!

I used to be a Catholic so I do understand a lot of the fundamental theology, but I swear when I was growing up, we were taught that souls dont have genders. I recall very specifically talking about angels in my religion class and our teacher saying angels and God are genderless. Jesus as a human has a gender simply because he had a physical body etc. 

But after all this transgender stuff became a cultural topic in the 21st century, I am now hearing people say souls do have a gender and because of this people who are transgender are just messed up in the head and confused since their gender is an innate part of their soul which they cant deny.

 

Also along the same lines, if souls DO have gender or that somehow it is an innate part of our being, is it possible that there could be a soul/body gender mismatch disorder that occurs? I mean, physical disorders happen all the time and God allows it...why couldnt a soul/body gender mismatch also happen? Maybe people are born where their souls gender doesnt match their bodies gender etc.

Just something I had been thinking about, thoughts?

[blazeingstar]

So question for any of you out there!

I used to be a Catholic so I do understand a lot of the fundamental theology, but I swear when I was growing up, we were taught that souls dont have genders. I recall very specifically talking about angels in my religion class and our teacher saying angels and God are genderless. Jesus as a human has a gender simply because he had a physical body etc. 

But after all this transgender stuff became a cultural topic in the 21st century, I am now hearing people say souls do have a gender and because of this people who are transgender are just messed up in the head and confused since their gender is an innate part of their soul which they cant deny.

 

Also along the same lines, if souls DO have gender or that somehow it is an innate part of our being, is it possible that there could be a soul/body gender mismatch disorder that occurs? I mean, physical disorders happen all the time and God allows it...why couldnt a soul/body gender mismatch also happen? Maybe people are born where their souls gender doesnt match their bodies gender etc.

Just something I had been thinking about, thoughts?

​Well, I think souls have a gender insomuch as a body is en-souled with a soul meant for that body. 

Anyone who declares that souls are male and female hasn't read the Bible because it clearly indicates that in Heaven there's neither Male nor Female, and since its pretty clear that we're 100% souls in heaven it seems impossible that a soul in Heaven would have gender.

Gender, as a basis, is about both chromosomes and sexual organs.  Female means the one that has eggs and bears young.  While one can change the outward physical appearance of the genitalia if the chromosomes remain, it's still very biologically hard to defend the outside reasons for physical modification.

 

[Nihil Obstat]

Souls do not have gender strictly speaking, but bodies do, and the body does form part of our actual identity. It is a form of dualism that treats the body more as a shell that holds the soul. It is more than that. 

[KnightofChrist]

Being created by God as male and female pertains to the essence of the human creature. - Pope Benedict XVI

 

[CrossCuT]

Being created by God as male and female pertains to the essence of the human creature. - Pope Benedict XVI

 

​How does that translate into the context of my question? Yes souls do have a gender?

[KnightofChrist]

CCC II. "BODY AND SOUL BUT TRULY ONE"

362 The human person, created in the image of God, is a being at once corporeal and spiritual. The biblical account expresses this reality in symbolic language when it affirms that "then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being."²²⁹ Man, whole and entire, is therefore willed by God.

363 In Sacred Scripture the term "soul" often refers to human life or the entire human person.²³⁰ But "soul" also refers to the innermost aspect of man, that which is of greatest value in him,²³¹ that by which he is most especially in God's image: "soul" signifies the spiritual principle in man.

364 The human body shares in the dignity of "the image of God": it is a human body precisely because it is animated by a spiritual soul, and it is the whole human person that is intended to become, in the body of Christ, a temple of the Spirit:²³²

 

Man, though made of body and soul, is a unity. Through his very bodily condition he sums up in himself the elements of the material world. Through him they are thus brought to their highest perfection and can raise their voice in praise freely given to the Creator. For this reason man may not despise his bodily life. Rather he is obliged to regard his body as good and to hold it in honor since God has created it and will raise it up on the last day. ²³³

365 The unity of soul and body is so profound that one has to consider the soul to be the "form" of the body:²³⁴ i.e., it is because of its spiritual soul that the body made of matter becomes a living, human body; spirit and matter, in man, are not two natures united, but rather their union forms a single nature.

366 The Church teaches that every spiritual soul is created immediately by God - it is not "produced" by the parents - and also that it is immortal: it does not perish when it separates from the body at death, and it will be reunited with the body at the final Resurrection.²³⁵

367 Sometimes the soul is distinguished from the spirit: St. Paul for instance prays that God may sanctify his people "wholly", with "spirit and soul and body" kept sound and blameless at the Lord's coming.²³⁶ The Church teaches that this distinction does not introduce a duality into the soul.²³⁷ "Spirit" signifies that from creation man is ordered to a supernatural end and that his soul can gratuitously be raised beyond all it deserves to communion with God.²³⁸

368 The spiritual tradition of the Church also emphasizes the heart, in the biblical sense of the depths of one's being, where the person decides for or against God.²³⁹

[KnightofChrist]

​How does that translate into the context of my question? Yes souls do have a gender?

​The soul and the body are one, our gender is part of our essence or a permanent part of our very being. The section above from the CCC goes into more detail.

[veritasluxmea]

So question for any of you out there!

I used to be a Catholic so I do understand a lot of the fundamental theology, but I swear when I was growing up, we were taught that souls dont have genders. I recall very specifically talking about angels in my religion class and our teacher saying angels and God are genderless. Jesus as a human has a gender simply because he had a physical body etc. 

But after all this transgender stuff became a cultural topic in the 21st century, I am now hearing people say souls do have a gender and because of this people who are transgender are just messed up in the head and confused since their gender is an innate part of their soul which they cant deny.

 

Also along the same lines, if souls DO have gender or that somehow it is an innate part of our being, is it possible that there could be a soul/body gender mismatch disorder that occurs? I mean, physical disorders happen all the time and God allows it...why couldnt a soul/body gender mismatch also happen? Maybe people are born where their souls gender doesnt match their bodies gender etc.

Just something I had been thinking about, thoughts?

It might be easier to understand the Catholic thinking if you think of it this way: souls have their gender from their body. They are united in a similar way the Trinity is united (but separate) and will be for all eternity. So... souls do have gender, but it's only because they have a body. 

Because your body gives you your sex... whatever your biological sex is your soul will be, your souls conforms to your body as you were created might be an easier way to understand it. If you were caught in a terrible fire or accident or something and your body changes, it won't change how you were formed in the womb and what your soul was united to. (If you lose your arm it doesn't mean you weren't supposed to have one originally, and the understanding is that in Heaven you will have your arm back, or it will be glorified anyway.) It's united on a physical/spiritual reality not an emotional/affective one; so no matter how you "feel" (and I'm using that in the most loose way possible because I understand feelings and disorders are beyond your control) the physical reality will be a physical reality. How you were created is how you were created. it would be impossible to have a girl soul and a male body (a mismatch) because your soul conforms to what you have, not what you feel you should be. What you should be is what you have! souls and bodies aren't created separately from each other; you are your body. People definitely do experience dysphoria for various and complicated psychological and physical reasons, but it's not a soul or physical body crisis, it's a mental/interior crisis. 

Back in the day there was an idea floating around that when people went to heaven they turned into angels and they never had their bodies so we didn't really have the two sexes up there. There was a lot of emphasis on souls don't have genders without understanding that with bodies, and we will have bodies in heaven, they do. It was never supported or approved by the Church and many people recognized it as wrong and taught what the Church really teaches, but it's one of those things that was floating around without people really understanding it or the truth. It's still a common idea in some progressive Christian circles. It's been around since Gnosticism I believe. 

Anyways, it's interesting transgenderism and sex changes are a current topic because things like having a third bionic arm or splicing bat genes into human genes so they'll have fur or whatever is on the rise as well. I think we can all understand that that is something added onto a person; it's not really a part of them naturally. It's "fake." Sex change operations are like that in a sense; it doesn't really make it "real."

Ugh, I have a hard time understanding and explaining it myself, so if that was the worst explanation in the world I'm really sorry. ​to finish: Angels are sexless, it's not part of their nature (considering they are non-procreating spirits and don't have bodies). God is sexless in a sense too; humanity's sex, sexuality, male/femaleness, marriages and so on are created representations of aspects of Him; there's a spiritual meaning about Him and who we are behind it. So He's all that and "more", so to speak. 

[veritasluxmea]

To follow up: 

For the most part, our culture defines masculinity and femininity in functional terms. People tend to think that women are women because they think these ways and dothese things and enjoy these preferences. Likewise, men are men because they think these other things and do these other things and enjoy these other preferences. But even if these stereotypes are true for a significant number of men and women, they aren’t true for all men and women–even a lot of men and women.

...

Men ARE men–and manly–because of their male body. They don’t have to do anything to earn their masculinity or “man up” so to speak. There is no “norm” to conform to, except the norm that comes with the male body and the maleness that emanates from that. Likewise, women ARE women, and womanly, because of their female body. Period. The TOB perspective is that people are best served when they stop trying to fit themselves into cultural stereotypes in order to try to “become” more of something they already are. Develop the body and mind God gave you to your fullest capacity and celebrate the respective masculinity/femininity that emerges as the fruit of that effort. Stop worrying about what you’re not and be what your body proves that you already are.

In the course of discussing this with a friend of mine, she suggested that, in some ways, TOB and secular feminism had a lot in common. She noted that the secular feminist movement of the 70′s asserted that women can be effective, as effective as men, in the career of their choice–so we shouldn’t call people “mailmen” or “postmen” or “firemen.” That’s true as far as it goes, but there’s an important difference in that secular feminists denied the reality of the body. They said that women could be whatever they wanted because the body didn’t matter.

By contrast, TOB says that women can be anything their body allows them to be and still be feminine just as men can do anything that their body allows them to do and still be masculine. In fact, a woman doing a “man’s job” could be perfectly competent but still approach it in a different and feminine way than a man would. Likewise for the man doing a more traditionally “feminine” profession. That embodied, inescapable difference defines the “feminine/masculine genius.”

The take-away from all this is that people in general–and parents in particular–need to stop defining their own masculinity or femininity (or their children’s) by what they do, how they think, or what they prefer. We need to recognize that masculinity and femininity are free gifts that flow naturally out of the body God gave us. There are many ways to be masculine and they are all perfectly manly just as there are many ways to be feminine and they are all beautiful. Trying to force yourself or your child into a stereotype just leads to alienation, self-doubt, misery and sometimes even serious sexual confusion. (via Faith on the Couch) 

[NadaTeTurbe]

http://www.sexchangeregret.com/wwwsexchangeregretcom

this man regrets his sex change. He raises many interesting point about surgery, mental illness, etc...