CrossCuT Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 No, I'm just pointing out that your version of "selling out" is ridiculous. Between makeup and surgery these days we have no legitmate way of knowing a person's gender. There are naturally hairy women, as well as slender, babyfaced men. You can't really tell. And if you don't know someone from birth how do you really know that they aren't trying to correct their actions and calling the person "Dave" when they were "Sandra" but were actually born "Dave" and decided not to become "Sandra" but you only knew them as such is well--reality. Unsucessful transitons happen, and I think at more of a rate than people think. Now, I work with young people prone to fickleness and flights of fancy, but still, they are a part of the whole. My point is that this is not a hill to die on, because it is not one that is apparently clear in normal discussion. Some things are easier. I don't use husband and wife or spouse for homosexual couples, I use partner as the church teaches they cannot have a natural marriage. This is something I can control. But if a person presents themselves to me as male, I'm going to talk to them like a human being and go with that. If I see someone stealing and I tell the convience store cashiere, "That woman stole a candy bar" and the "woman" flips out and declares themselves male, I'd just turn to the cashier and say, "That man is stealing." Agreed. That line of thinking opens up news doors into privacy invasion and mistreatment. Breaking down gender norms is a wonderful thing so that people can express themselves in ways that are comfortable to them. A heterosexual man may prefer to wear what are normally considered feminine clothes and may also look feminine. To someone who doesnt know him, they might think he is qwerty or transgender and may even potentially choose to call him by the inappropriate pronouns. There is no good way of knowing for sure unless the individual informs you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 So since Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner has been all over the news and my newsfeed I thought I'd throw this question out there. I tried to make the poll options cover most conceivable responses but if you have another way to respond, feel free to expound. Speaking of him as a celebrity I would still refer to him as Bruce Jenner. I don't know him, and have no personal reason to pretend he's not who he was. If I knew someone in real life, I'm not sure...I've never met anyone who changed their gender. But I find the idea of having to call someone by another name fake...it would probably be hard to have any real interaction with that person if they took it personally. I'm trying to imagine what "friendship" would mean in that case, if I did not buy in to the idea of changing gender. I guess there could be generic friendship, but real personal friendship? I'm not sure, guess I'll have to wait until life presents me with that situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 No, I'm just pointing out that your version of "selling out" is ridiculous. Between makeup and surgery these days we have no legitmate way of knowing a person's gender. There are naturally hairy women, as well as slender, babyfaced men. You can't really tell. And if you don't know someone from birth how do you really know that they aren't trying to correct their actions and calling the person "Dave" when they were "Sandra" but were actually born "Dave" and decided not to become "Sandra" but you only knew them as such is well--reality. Unsucessful transitons happen, and I think at more of a rate than people think. Now, I work with young people prone to fickleness and flights of fancy, but still, they are a part of the whole. My point is that this is not a hill to die on, because it is not one that is apparently clear in normal discussion. Some things are easier. I don't use husband and wife or spouse for homosexual couples, I use partner as the church teaches they cannot have a natural marriage. This is something I can control. But if a person presents themselves to me as male, I'm going to talk to them like a human being and go with that. If I see someone stealing and I tell the convience store cashiere, "That woman stole a candy bar" and the "woman" flips out and declares themselves male, I'd just turn to the cashier and say, "That man is stealing." It's not ridiculous, you've just chosen give in and roll down that "hill" whilst I have not. You've chosen to call them whatever gender they may want to be call from day to day. In that case you would indeed know they cannot be both. At very least we could avoid supporting a sort of musical chairs when it comes to gender. If a person presents themselves as male one day and female the next we know one is true and the other is not. In a similar manner we would know that someone who says they are age 18 one day and 21 the next. Either they are 18 or 21 or some other age. Should we roll with that too? In that case it is pretty clear what most people would do, they would simply ask the person "what is your actual age?" So I see no problem in asking "what is your actual gender?", so no need to ask immoral questions of seeing genitals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not The Philosopher Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 People here seem to be conflating two different circumstances. The first is when you personally know someone who has transitioned (which seems to be the situation the OP has in mind), the second is where you run into a woman who seems a little too buff and you're like, "hmmm....I wonder...." In the latter case where we're simply lacking in information, it is, as a rule, charitable to avoid rash judgments and to take people as they present themselves in good faith. The former case is rather different, and I admit to not having dealt with it. I don't think we should be cooperating with someone else's pathology, but you shouldn't be a jerk about it either. You should ideally be able to make it clear to them that you disagree with their self-identification out of a concern for their well being rather than that of spite. Public spectacle and ideologues aside, people with gender dysphoria are genuinely hurting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hotpink Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 It's not ridiculous, you've just chosen give in and roll down that "hill" whilst I have not. You've chosen to call them whatever gender they may want to be call from day to day. In that case you would indeed know they cannot be both. At very least we could avoid supporting a sort of musical chairs when it comes to gender. If a person presents themselves as male one day and female the next we know one is true and the other is not. In a similar manner we would know that someone who says they are age 18 one day and 21 the next. Either they are 18 or 21 or some other age. Should we roll with that too? In that case it is pretty clear what most people would do, they would simply ask the person "what is your actual age?" So I see no problem in asking "what is your actual gender?", so no need to ask immoral questions of seeing genitals. But there is right to know. Even the most basic theologins can state that. That's what makes it OK for someone to not confess outright to hiding Jews in their basment when Jews are in their attic. Unless you're a bouncer or selling alchol or writing a contract, you have no need or right to know someone's age. I struggle to think of a situation where you'd really need to ask about gender, short of being a "bouncer" at a gym changing room or I dunno... It's just not necessary. Certinally not in the regular workforce, or shopping or 99% of activities. That and "actual gender" for a gender dysmorphic people is probmatic becuase they believe they are the opposite gender and would subsequently answer...which, unless their genetalas are ovious would still force your hand to use what they provided, regardless of what you thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 People here seem to be conflating two different circumstances. The first is when you personally know someone who has transitioned (which seems to be the situation the OP has in mind), the second is where you run into a woman who seems a little too buff and you're like, "hmmm....I wonder...." In the latter case where we're simply lacking in information, it is, as a rule, charitable to avoid rash judgments and to take people as they present themselves in good faith. The former case is rather different, and I admit to not having dealt with it. I don't think we should be cooperating with someone else's pathology, but you shouldn't be a jerk about it either. You should ideally be able to make it clear to them that you disagree with their self-identification out of a concern for their well being rather than that of spite. Public spectacle and ideologues aside, people with gender dysphoria are genuinely hurting. I'll agree to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 But there is right to know. Even the most basic theologins can state that. That's what makes it OK for someone to not confess outright to hiding Jews in their basment when Jews are in their attic. Unless you're a bouncer or selling alchol or writing a contract, you have no need or right to know someone's age. I struggle to think of a situation where you'd really need to ask about gender, short of being a "bouncer" at a gym changing room or I dunno... It's just not necessary. Certinally not in the regular workforce, or shopping or 99% of activities. That and "actual gender" for a gender dysmorphic people is probmatic becuase they believe they are the opposite gender and would subsequently answer...which, unless their genetalas are ovious would still force your hand to use what they provided, regardless of what you thought. But we are talking about those that present themselves as one gender or age one day and then presenting themselves as another gender or age the next. I don't believe "right to know" applies here. It's simply asking which one of the person's publicly declared statements is true or which one of their publicly revealed presentations is true. Would you go along with someone wanting to be refereed to as a dead historical person or a fictional character? Or do you only except these types of things when it is sexual in nature? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hotpink Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 But we are talking about those that present themselves as one gender or age one day and then presenting themselves as another gender or age the next. I don't believe "right to know" applies here. It's simply asking which one of the person's publicly declared statements is true or which one of their publicly revealed presentations is true. Would you go along with someone wanting to be refereed to as a dead historical person or a fictional character? Or do you only except these types of things when it is sexual in nature? If someone was so delusional that they presented themselves as say Abrhaham Lincolin, then I would probably call the cops for everyone's saftey. But like I said before, sometimes you have no idea of someones "born" gender. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 If someone was so delusional that they presented themselves as say Abrhaham Lincolin, then I would probably call the cops for everyone's saftey. But like I said before, sometimes you have no idea of someones "born" gender. Not a good comparison, because they aren't saying "I'm THAT woman" but "I'm A woman." Many people might say "I'm A Lincoln" or "I'm A Caesar," putting themselves in the same category, not claiming to be the person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 (edited) What about if someone wanted to claim identity with something that does not exist in reality? Or at least something clearly non-living? I am curious how far anyone is willing to push these identification issues. Seriously, is it strictly limited to humans? If so, why? What if someone is absolutely adamant that they are a dog in a human body? Or a cucumber? Or a fifth-dimensional energy-being? Edited June 4, 2015 by Nihil Obstat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 If you can claim you are a prophet from an invisible deity who has spoken to you and sent you on a mission, is there anything you can't claim? If someone claims to be a Mormon, what else are you going to do but smile and say okay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
veritasluxmea Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 If someone if living under the delusion they are the opposite sex/otherkin (yes nihil, thinking you're part animal, angel, or even an entity is a thing)/whatever, I'd roll with it. Simile and nod. Actually I have known neighbors in the past and currently know someone who is obviously transgender, and that's what I do. However, just because I go along with them absolutely doesn't make them what they think they are. I don't think "Caitlyn" Jenner is a women. I'm just not qualified to help them address their issues based on the short amount of contact I have with them. If they asked me I would explain that I still think they are ___ but I sympathize with what they're dealing with and am willing to call them and treat them as "X" if it makes them feel more comfortable. For a family member it'd be different, because there is some more responsibility involved. Depending on if it's an immediate family member, I would ask them how they feel about this, why they are doing this, what they want. And really listen and see where I can meet and help them. I would explain that I still think, and always will think, that they are ___. I don't think they will be able to live a good and happy life by forcing themselves into living a lie, and I would want them to really work to address the root of their issues, and I want to help them do that. It's the work of a lifetime but it's worth it. From there it all depends on if they're set on transitioning, if they're still trying to figure it out, if they are just confused, if they want help/don't want help- based on where they are I might need to get more involved or not. I may or may not address them how they want, depending on our relationship and where they are. And I'd pray. I have been praying for "Caitlyn", maybe we should start a prayer intention for them on phatmass? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clare Brigid Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 Folks, I am a trans woman (a male-to-female transsexual). I am fully transitioned, living as a woman, having obtained a legal name change and a name and gender designation change in all my documentation (birth certificate, driver's license, Social Security, U.S. passport). I just want to remind you guys that I'm here and that I'm willing to answer respectful questions in this thread or by p.m. I'll answer them, but I'm not interested in debating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhuturePriest Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 I would call the person in question by their chosen name so as not to be douchy when speaking to them, but I would avoid saying he/her, because I wouldn't want to at least seemingly support their gender identify confusion. Names are very interchangeable, and there are many names that we use now for women that used to be for men, and vice-versa. However, calling a man a woman and a woman a man is a different matter entirely. Gender identifying words are not interchangeable like names are, so there is a different gravity to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
veritasluxmea Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 (edited) Folks, I am a trans woman (a male-to-female transsexual). I am fully transitioned, living as a woman, having obtained a legal name change and a name and gender designation change in all my documentation (birth certificate, driver's license, Social Security, U.S. passport). I just want to remind you guys that I'm here and that I'm willing to answer respectful questions in this thread or by p.m. I'll answer them, but I'm not interested in debating. Can I ask what religion you are? I'm curious to know if you're Catholic, how do you reconcile the Church's teachings on transexuality with your life or what do you think of those teachings in general? If you're not, well what do you think of Her position on transgenderism? Just wondering- if you'd prefer to answer by pm or not at all that's fine. Edited to add I'm not trying to start a debate, so maybe this would be better shared over pm. Edited June 5, 2015 by veritasluxmea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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